Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is presented by The Mac Parkman Foundation
The mission of this show and the foundation is To serve as a source of information, resources, and communications to the community of parents, coaches/Athletic trainers, medical staff, and athletes that are affected by sports-related concussions and to raise awareness of the long-term implications of concussive and sub-concussive trauma to our children.
Broken Brains will also explore how Concussive Trauma impacts our Service Members and Veterans.
Join us every week as Bruce interviews leaders and experts in various Medical fields, as well as survivors of Concussive trauma.
Produced by Security Halt Media
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman
CTE, Contact Sports, and Cultural Change: Paul Frase & Corey Berry on Brain Trauma Awareness
What if the sport you loved left a permanent mark on your brain?
In this powerful episode of Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman, we explore the life-altering impact of repetitive brain trauma in high-impact sports like football and rodeo. Bruce is joined by Paul Frase, former NFL player, and Corey Berry, former rodeo competitor, who both open up about their personal experiences with concussions, chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), and the mental health consequences that followed.
Together, they discuss:
- The long-term risks of repeated subconcussive impacts
- How CTE symptoms affect everyday life, relationships, and identity
- The cultural resistance to change in sports communities
- The urgent need for education, awareness, and advocacy—especially for parents and youth programs
- Why mental health support and early intervention are critical for athletes, veterans, and survivors
This conversation is a wake-up call for athletes, families, coaches, and policymakers. If you care about the future of sports and the minds of those who play them, this episode is a must-listen.
🎧 Available now on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts
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Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is sponsored by The Mac Parkman Foundation
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Produced by Security Halt Media
Hey folks, welcome to another podcast of Broken Brains with your host, bruce Parkman, sponsored by the Mack Parkman Foundation, the national voice for repetitive brain trauma, and how repetitive it impacts from contact sports and repetitive blast exposure for our military veterans is impacting their brains and causing a wave of mental illness that needs to be better diagnosed and better treated. So on this podcast, we reach out to researchers and scientists, professional players, professional sportsmen, parents, advocates and other people in this space, because this issue is remarkably unknown by our medical community. The same community we trust our brains and our kids to has no idea that this exists. And so, on this podcast, we want you to be informed, to understand different perspectives on brain health and how this impacts athletes and how this impacts our veterans, how this impacts our kids, so you can make better decisions. Or, if you see somebody struggling, you know that there is hope and that we can help them improve their quality of life.
Speaker 1:On the show today, two remarkable guests and good friends of mine. They host their own remarkable podcast called Head Rush Podcast. Highly encourage you to watch that. They just had Brett Farber on there. They bring on some amazing guests. I think we'll talk about that a little bit later, but let me talk about our two guests, paul and Corey.
Speaker 1:Paul Fraze and Corey Berry played at the top level of their sport. Paul played 11 years in the NFL and Corey competed professionally for nine years in the pro rodeo world in bareback riding. They both attained over 10,000 plus repeated hits, concussive hits and concussions in their lifetime. Paul started out earlier, playing football in high school at Spalding High, then went through college, syracuse, universe and professional football for the Jets, jaguars, green Bay Packers and Baltimore Ravens as a defensive tackle and defensive end. So we're looking at four years of high school, four years of college and 11 years of professional sports. He was part of the original testing for biomarkers for CTE at the Boston University, where he went through extensive neurological tests, mris and psychological evaluations. He believes he is suspected to have CTE after all the testing and symptoms and there's no doubt that you, like myself, are way on your way there. But that's why we have this podcast, so we can all talk about improvement.
Speaker 1:Corey Berry's rodeo career started at a very young age, getting on his first rough stock at the age of eight, riding steers, no less. No ponies got to go to steers. He then moved up the bulls for a few years before finding his passion for riding bareback rucks. He got on his first bare back at age 14 and never stopped rodeoing in numerous organizations and finally going pro in 1989. He retired from the sport in 1998 after sustaining a broken neck as well as suffering from cognitive issues. He continued to ride and team rope until he was a car accident in 2022. Nothing like adding a TBI onto all that trouble.
Speaker 1:After suffering from cognitive issues since 1998, corey fully retired in 2022 and started seeing top neurologists and getting tested for the issues that he was undergoing. He went for evaluation at UT San Antonio Glenn Briggs Institute for Alzheimer's and Neurodegenerative Diseases and the CTE Evaluation Center. He was diagnosed with Traumatic Encephalopathy Syndrome TES, which we'll talk about later, which is the in vivo diagnosis for CTE and probable CTE. Now this disease has brought them together. They started the Head Rush podcast to bring hope and awareness to this horrible disease and condition. Knowing that the medical world can be a struggle to navigate, they have been reaching out to top neurologists, medical research universities, neuroendocrinologists, psychiatrists, as well as other medical professionals to ensure that they have the top level of talent on their podcast as well, to discuss the issues of repetitive brain trauma and how it's impacted them, the people they know and their loved ones as well.
Speaker 1:Because we all have caretakers. And guess what, when we're the patient, sometimes our caretakers don't have the best amount of, they don't have the highest quality of life dealing with us old, angry men as well. I have a marriage. I have a wife as well. They could talk about this. So anyways, guys, welcome to the podcast. Sorry for the technical problems. As an old green beret I can't really get it together. Sometimes Things that work don't work 30 minutes later for me, I don't know. But anyways, welcome to the podcast. It's so good to see your faces.
Speaker 2:It is incredible to be on and you know you were talking about Corey riding bareback in Bronx. You're a Green Beret, you play. Do you still do the rugby thing or you're not? Anyway, you both have screws loose. He gets on a freaking 1,300-pound animal and you don't wear a helmet. But my helmet never helped me.
Speaker 1:No, we all know those helmets don't help anyways, man. But technically I do not play rugby. I am the bagpiper for the Band of Brothers Rugby Club. We get together twice a year but sometimes, man, you just got to run out there and make a tackle and get back there. But no, man. Thank you guys for coming on. I know you're busy, man. How's the podcast going, man? You guys have had some amazing guests on that show, man. I'm so proud and I'm happy for you both.
Speaker 2:Well, we wanted, we need to make a splash because, you know, corey has been incredible. I'm wanting to sit back and say, no, we can't ask Dr Gordon, he's really busy and Corey will, you know, call me the next day and say, hey, I just got Mark on the phone and we're going to. You know, he's going to come on with my Zaldameo and blah blah. So you know, corey are you. I don't see Corey on the screen right now, but he's been incredible and he does all. Hey, he just and I believe it was a post that came from you, man, it's a powerful post. I believe it was a post that came from you, man, it's a powerful post. The CTE is the only degenerative, neurological degenerative disease that's 100% preventable. Is that the one that you guys?
Speaker 1:I don't know if that's out there, but it is. I mean it absolutely is. If we start talking about delaying exposure, reducing contact, in practice we're going to have a dinged up brain. I mean you might have stage one or something. But now that we know what we know about brain science and brain health, I mean we can absolutely, you know, prevent the significant deterioration of our brains, of these brains, and with the treatments that we have now. You know we're seeing veterans come back at an NFL. You know players come back using a lot of modalities that we discussed on both our podcasts.
Speaker 1:But CTE, like I tell people, people don't die from CTE. Nobody's ever died from CTE. They've died from the mental illnesses that are caused by damage to their brain. Cte is a condition. You're going to have it. I'm going to have it when they autopsy our brains. We're going to have CTE, whatever stage. We didn't. You know, we're going to carry it as a condition and we're doing things as individuals to treat it as well. I know that you and Corey are on your own path. I've been on mine.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean, we'll wait for Corey to dive in, but I think it's absolutely true. I do think that CTE is absolutely true. Yeah, we just are. We're following your footsteps, we're following the ultimate. You know the ultimate you know from the stopteorg.
Speaker 1:Yeah, stop it man Doug. Karen, we love Karen to death. Man hey, it's Corey. Yeah, stop it, man Karen. We love Karen to death. Man hey, corey. How's it going, bros?
Speaker 3:All righty. I don't know what the heck happened, but I'm on my phone now. I do too, man.
Speaker 2:Paul was just bragging about you, bro, how you go out there and you wrangle all those guests like they're ponies out there and you rope them up and you bring them and you drag them into the podcast man, all right, yeah, I was saying, corey, that I'm the one to step back and say, no, we got to. You know, we got to be on for a few more months before we get somebody like Mark Gordon and I'm like, no, I just called him, he's ready to go.
Speaker 1:I think, corey was great Corey could have been from New Jersey with that attitude. Because they just don't care, man, they'll call up anybody, man, it's all good. But so from our audience's perspective, man, tell us, corey, let's start with you. Man, we don't meet a lot of rodeo folks and we're starting to understand that it's not just football and soccer and rugby, but now these sports that have a lot of movement to the brain, jarring movements, bmx, skateboarding, our special boat unit, members in the Navy that hit it, you know the F-18, the Top Gun people that hit the car. All this trauma is causing a lot of problems that we never even thought about, man. So tell us about you know your career, man, and all the amazing. You know the stuff that you did that got you to a point where you know you started understanding that you're having problems because of all the trauma.
Speaker 3:Well, I, you know, I started out actually I think I got on my first sheep when I was about three or four years old they call it mutton busted and then moved into calves and then stairs at eight and then I went into riding bulls a little bit and then I found my passion in bareback Bronx and you know, plus, I did wrestling, I did football, I did hockey, one season Boxing. I was just love doing sports and so. But when it got going on my career even more come high school I just really regulated myself just to football and rodeo. I did boxing a little bit, did karate for a while and all of that. And then after that I just went pro, went to college for one semester on a scholarship and after this I'm an idiot by character. So I got my scholarship for rodeo, bareback Bronx, and I also pulled my permit at the same time for pro and I ended up winning money pro and decided you know, I'm going to be a millionaire in rodeo, I don't need college.
Speaker 3:So I left college and went on the rodeo road and, you know, rodeoed until 1998, met my wife and I was having some mental issues and so we called up candy freeman, who's head of the he's not head of the Justin Cowboy Crisis Fund, but he's the top dog doctor Called him. He called UCSF, called me back, said can you be at UCSF tomorrow morning at 9 am and I said yeah, it's about a seven hour drive but I can be there Went down there, saw Dr Jorgensen, who is the top neurologist down there at the time, and they ran a bunch of tests and stuff and while they were doing x-rays they found out I had a broken neck and he he anticipated. He thought that it looked like it's been broken for about a year and that it started to refuse in the wrong area and also found cognitive nerve damage due to all my head hits. And so I went in, had a neck fusion done at the C6 and retired from rodeo after that and then just went to being a truck driver and outside salesman.
Speaker 1:Wow, man. So that was a long, long darn career and you weren't even, I mean, were you aware as you got to the end. Well, let me, let me table that one for, because this is a question for both of you. Paul, you know to our, you know panelists, you know I mean to our audience, man NFL, okay. I mean you know to our you know panelists, you know I mean to our audience, man NFL, okay, I mean you were both gladiators, right? You're both under the lights, you're both, you know, on TV. You know, tell us about your NFL career. You know, obviously you played a lot of ball before you started and you played in the league for quite a while, which, you know, given the average career lengths for a lot of NFL players, is a blessing and sometimes a curse unto itself. So tell us a little bit about you know, your professional career and your encounters with subconcussive trauma.
Speaker 2:Well, I definitely. I started playing high school football. That was the first time I ever played football and I was kind of following my brother's footsteps. I had two older brothers and they were good football players and obviously back then we never thought, you know, thought anything about concussions. We never thought of anything about head trauma, tbi, it wasn't even a concern. Ended up, you know, we ended up being state champions in high school and then I went to Syracuse and played a couple of years out of a five-year career there, never really thought anything about. You know, I never was not one of those kids that you know dreamed about. I'm going to be in the NFL someday, right, but anyway, we, we, I got the opportunity, got drafted and then I ended up playing for the Jets for seven years, two with Jacksonville, one Green Bay and one Baltimore.
Speaker 2:Head trauma. I remember in college playing with a splitting headache in double sessions every single day. It's almost like when you start understanding what concussive hits are, you understand that you probably played for many, many practices and hit over and over again and the head just screaming and seeing the stars and the couple color purple, and so it's. It's amazing how much we forced our brains and our heads to take the battering because we used that forehead as a weapon. But I was talking to. We were actually sitting in the owner's box after I was retired and I was sitting there with Chris Nowinski and I said, chris and this was probably 12 years ago when everything was starting to get heated up about CTE and the concussion settlement lawsuit and so on and so forth I said, chris, you know I chose to play this game.
Speaker 2:You know, I knew I was kind of smart. I knew ramming my head against a 300 pound over and over and over and over again is not healthy. So I don't know, and I didn't join the class action lawsuit against the NFL. But, chris, I'll never forget his response. He says, paul, okay, you chose it, but what about those seven-year-old kids that don't necessarily choose it? What about those seven-year-old kids that daddy or mommy gets excited about them strapping on a helmet on? I'm down here in Florida and you know the Gainesville, the Gators and Florida State, miami. You have it, and you can't even imagine the excitement that is generated by these parents and alumni. Now Corey and I have slowly gotten on to the okay flag football, until 14 years old At least. Well, I didn't start playing football until 14 years old. The likelihood, you know, we all know Boston College, I mean Boston University's and CLF's statistics of 91.7% of dead NFL players that they tested have CTE. Buy a sample, but they had CTE.
Speaker 1:Yeah, slightly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, so, but we just didn't you start understanding and then meeting you, meeting Karen and Doug talking to Dr Gordon, talking to Maisel DeMeo, our psychiatrist, doctor of psychiatry, talking to the specialist, understanding and hearing for the first time, the myelin sheath doesn't even you know, your, your prefrontal cortex is where you hit, hit, hit, and the myelin sheath is not even done, growing until your early 20s. So those set, those seven-year-olds, don't even have a chance. So, and I know I rambled right there, but no, and that's what.
Speaker 1:But you, you guys like me, I guess we'd say you're old school right, and no matter your profession, right. I mean, there was things that we did back the way it was, just the way it was right. You're two-a-days, you know, corey, getting on a bronc at seven or eight, whatever it is right, things that really they don't happen too much Like they don't. I mean, they don't have two-a-days anymore and they might not put eight-year-olds on Bronx.
Speaker 2:The NFL doesn't.
Speaker 1:Right. But that's the point is that we still got this problem right, despite the way you guys and me were Neanderthals, right, we did everything wrong, but we did it, and we're going to talk about selflessness in here in a little bit, but you know. So why do we still have this problem? Why do we? You know, corey, in your perspective, what are they doing in bronc riding? Have they changed anything yet? Have they even recognized this as a potential outcome of you know? And then, how do you? How do you? You know, how do you practice Brock riding? You know you can practice football and skills and drills without hitting anybody. How the hell do you practice Brock riding without you know you can't practice it. You got to get on the damn the damn horse, or not, I guess? Right? I mean, what are they trying? Are they? Are they even addressing this as an issue right now? Yes and no. Are they even addressing this as an issue right now?
Speaker 3:Yes and no. Yes, they built. You know, back when I rode we had medical socks that we filled with foam and made a neck roll out of it. So our necks still pop back Now. They got neck braces that come clear to almost the top of your head to stop the swish. So bad. So they are making wearing helmets and bucking horses. You just can't do it. You're adding more weight onto your head, taking the snap. It's not good.
Speaker 3:I'm a product that I feel bad about because I did put six year olds on bucking many ponies up to 14. And I knew I was having cognitive problems due to all my head hits. You know I've been drug kicked in the head. I mean I've had so many concussions you can't knocked out, metaflighted and yada, yada, yada. But in the rodeo world there you really can't be safe. I mean, the way I look at it now and the way I tell people is if your kid's going to rodeo, we got the mighty buckies, we got all the schooling. You can get on a spur board. You know there's a lot you can do to learn Get on a saddle horse with a bareback rig and learn the feel. But no, no, once you go to getting on something that bucks. There's only one way that you can do it and that's by getting on, and I think that's where rodeo is different and everybody else is.
Speaker 3:Ty pause upon was the first one public that came out diagnosed ct and he was a bull rider that committed suicide. He's a Canadian, committed suicide at 25 years old. I've had friends of mine shoot themselves. I had another friend of mine shoot his wife and himself. Others drink, but in rodeo there's really nothing.
Speaker 3:We didn't do it for the money, we did it for the love. It's the love of the game, the love of the sport, the love of the lifestyle, your friendships, your camaraderie. I would compare it to a lot to what you did, bruce, with the military, even though we're not even close. Let me go right up and say you know, my pride for the military is very high, but our camaraderie, our brotherhood in the rodeo industry is so tight that that's where I can say you know, like me and you have talked, my brother being a ranger, his camaraderie with his other rangers are tight, but in rodeo, no, I don't think that there's gonna. You can ever stop. Stop it it's, it's going to happen. So what you do is I say let's get rid of the mini buckers and tell at least 14,. Let the body develop, let the brains develop, let the muscles develop, let the skeletal develop, let everything develop and then get on, because in reality there's no safe age. You just heard it from Paul he didn't start football until he was 14.
Speaker 1:And that's a very telling point. And I'll tell you, corey, you bring up something and people say why'd you do it? Why are we still going to do it? Why are men going to still join the army and women and do crazy things? You know, why are people going to play football and ride on bunks? And the thing is they're going to do that because they're never going to match the love that they have on a team.
Speaker 1:As a rider amongst your professional, I mean, that's what underlies everything that we're talking about. I mean. I think I mean people say, hey, man, why did you become a Green Beret? Well, I needed to prove to my dad that I was actually something other than he thought I was, which was basically worthless. But the other part of it is on an A team, bro, you are dialed in, you go to combat with these guys, you go on missions with these guys and you learn to love each other. And that was the first time. I was an infantry guy, an infantryman. You have one or two close friends On an A team bro. You're tight On my rugby teams, man, the love that we still have to this day and I can only imagine what you guys dealt with in your respective areas were similarly so, and it was that love and that feeling and that loyalty that kept you going until you couldn't go no more. The issue that we have right now is that you guys are gladiators, okay, you've given it all to the fans, to the you know people out there and now you know there's there's, there's consequences and we've got to make the consequences right, which is we've got to, you know, identify people. They know both of you have talked to me about your, your struggles, like I've talked about my mental health issues to both of you. You know, and we have all been or are still putting ourselves together, right and but everything out there that can help us, you know it's not covered by insurance. It's not covered by, you know, on my side, the VA, you know they don't try care, don't touch it. I know that most of the insurance companies out there but they are starting to move closer to some of the treatments that can help us all out. So I think, for one part you talked about, you know, delaying exposure Corey, absolutely, I think that is critical to this but the other part is making sure that we have a healthcare system that will support us after we're done, and whether it's funded by a league like the NFL, you'll know that rodeo doesn't have the money to be able to put together you know. You know, you know treatment support plans for all. You know the thousands and thousands of kids and men and women that have played that sport right. It's just not going to happen and we have to realize that. You know.
Speaker 1:I said this the other day I was at a very high ranking meeting of military commanders on brain health, like what are we going to do? And the military kept asking it's like well, we don't. We have a problem, cause if people know that hanging mortars much like playing football and rodeo, if they know that this is, you know, not good for their brains, then what are we going to do? What's going to happen to recruitment and all this? And I and I and I just stopped them all and I say can I say something? And they said yeah, and this goes to the core. I think of what Paul, you and Corey are promoting on your podcast.
Speaker 1:I said when I got out of the military I knew that there was going to be a price to pay. When I joined, I knew jumping out of planes, blowing things up. You know getting, you know taking fragmentation in my face and, you know, lower back osteoarthritis. I mean, I'm 38 and I have osteoarthritis in every joint in my body, but I think one wrist right. But I did it because I loved the job and I knew the VA was going to be able to take care of me. Now the VA can't take care of this, but they're learning how to do it and I do think that for our sports and activities you know, rodeo is a sport, right, you put it out there, right. What are we going to have in place when Paul and Corey get to the end of their career?
Speaker 1:That's based on the research and science that we're all. I mean, come on, you guys, you and me didn't know nothing about brain health three or four years ago, right. We didn't know. We never even heard of RHI, right. And here we are talking about research and science and change and all these things, because we're on both sides of the equation. Corey, paul, you guys have lost good friends you know to. You know to torment and mental health issues from your particular areas of that you played in. I've lost, you know, a lot of folks and I'm aware of way too many others that have decided not to be here because of the amount of exposure they're taking.
Speaker 1:But I think you know the point is we can, we can change. You know all this and and and keep this, keep this moving, especially with the amazing. You know the amount of knowledge that's out there. So you know, paul, moving over to you, I mean where do you think we? You know we can go. I mean we can talk about? You know football or the, you know contact sports or whatever we know. There's a lot of money there. We know there's a lot of resistance to people knowing what we know right here, those three of us, what we know up here. There's kind of a lot of resistance out there.
Speaker 1:But yet I do think that we can make sports safer, way safer than they've ever been. I tell people all the time do you know what's not in the brain bank at BU? There ain't no baseball players, there ain't no basketball players, there ain't no golfers. There's all these other sports you could play, but yet we can actually play football. Right, the quarry will get to your sport. I don't know if we can delay. We might have to start your sport at 25 or something right, but you know. But, paul, we can take the contact out of it, we can delay exposure. I think we just need to grow up as a society and understand that, this macho shit that we've all been a part of in our lives. We need to tone this back and look at grace, with some love, at our society. And what can we do to protect our sports for the future? What do you have to say?
Speaker 2:I heard from you a number of months ago, maybe a year, year and a half ago, the simple math of going from hitting five times a week down to one time a week 80% reduction in repeated head impacts. The NFL has already started doing it right. I mean, I think the Ivy Leagues were one of the first leagues to do it. I know Chris Nowinski was instrumental and they actually stopped playing or practicing with pads after the beginning of the season. I mean, that's simple. Those just reduce the number of the hits because we all know that CTE is a result from repeated impacts, repeated blast exposures, the whole. That's what causes CTE. So simple reduce. Reduction of contacts. The NFL needs to, and Corey and I were talking about we talked about Brett, karen, karen Zegel from Stop CT or the Patrick Grisha Foundation for CT Awareness. She asked, she had us ask Brett Favre a question and the question was why don't you think the NFL? They do have a flag football league, but why don't they say it's not safe for your kid to play? Hang their heads, let them play flag football. You know Brett was brave enough to say money, that's great, you know money. But the NFL it's just. You go to quiet explosions. Dr Raymond talking to the Notre Dame killer, the buster that running back, that ran the touchdown all the way back in the third quarter and turned the game around. They wrote a letter to Roger Gale Get out. Never heard back from him. The NFL has the opportunity.
Speaker 2:Exactly what you were saying. To your point, bruce the NFL. If they started. To your point, bruce the NFL. If they started endorsing some of they were taking care of their people. You're never going to have professional wrestling. Well, people come and want to be a professional wrestler. That's not good for your head. We know that People want to play rugby. That's not good. Those sports are not going away. If we could reduce the repeated head impacts, get the professional sports to come up alongside with the, the older guys, and just know that they're not going to happen. You know, is the government going to take you under their arm and say we're not going to leave you? Well, if they did, they probably would have record numbers applying. I don't know.
Speaker 1:But to your point, I mean the government, I mean the military, now does finally understand this problem and I think but it's just getting the VA, which is such an enormous organization to get. All the same thing exists where you, with you and Paul, I mean with you and Corey your world is how do we get the insurance community, the medical care community, to understand that this is an issue that that you know. We can make recommendations for Tommy to stop playing football at 12, since he's been there since six and he's starting to act out. We can absolutely make better decisions as coaches to take it, because in the end, it's not about winning anymore. All right, until you become, until you're getting paid for something. Then it becomes about winning. Until then it's about your childhood, your future, and that is and that is your success in life. And if we're going to impact that with bareback riding and football, then we need to do it in a way that is going to be beneficial to this child, because if they don't go Corey's route and they don't go pro, they still have to have a brain. They still have to have a brain, they still have to have their sanity, they still have to have to be able to function as a normal adult, and that needs to be our priority. Because if I you know, corey, I do believe, just like Paul, you guys showed some. I will just say you know, you just had what it's going to take to be a pro, and that is only in a few of God's children.
Speaker 1:You just don't go out there, jump on a goddamn horse with no. The only time I jumped on a horse and it had a saddle on scared the crap out of me so bad that I got off and I punched it in the face and I broke my hand. I never will do that again. Horses have very hard helds and that thing just looked at me and laughed, right, and I don't know how you do it, but you just can't. You either get on a horse and you can ride that puppy and you can put on a helmet and you can play ball. And that's what I keep telling people is you can't stop these folks from getting to being pro. They got it. They got this natural instinct whether it's a basketball player or whatever to do what God intended them to do. And you guys were on and still are on God's path, right.
Speaker 1:But the issue is, what do we do now, right? I mean, we're in this world of where both we're all trying to enforce change through our podcast, through our connections, and you two have personalized your issues with your sports, which is one of the hardest things for us to do when we come out. But yet you're not going to badmouth Rodeo, corey, and you're not going to badmouth football, paul, and I'm not going to badmouth the military, because we're all learning together. But you know, I will badmouth people that have known about this for years and never did anything about it. You know, because I've got a dead boy right and Paul, you got a hurt brain and friends and Corey, you got friends that aren't here. And if those leagues and people have known about this for a long time and haven't done anything about it, man, then that's a shame, okay, that's a dang shame, because there we have caused unnecessary suffering. So, you know, I do think that some of the paths that we're on are critical to what we need.
Speaker 1:Corey, when you were riding, what was like? What was your worst? What like the worst incident that you had with your brain? You talked about getting medevaced out. Man, what the heck happened to you when you, when you got medevaced out?
Speaker 3:I that was down in southern california and, uh, I ended up getting hung up by the rigging and bareback riding. It's like holding a suitcase handle is all you got. Well, you got a palm piece with a big, thick leather glove and it's right, it's ride and leather rigging, and you got a palm piece over here and when you bind yourself in you're bound. I mean, you can, it'll come out, but if you get bucked off the off side and you're hung like this, there's no way to get your hand out. And so you got to jump up around the horse to get around, or they come and get you up and what happened is I got bucked off, got slung around and I hit the panel. It jerked my rig and put it underneath the horse and so I was getting drug and kicked, kicked and hit and trumped all over and I was completely unconscious and when I woke up I was in a helicopter on my way to san diego hospital and you know.
Speaker 3:But for us, my big thing is, even when I talk to kids today and I did it all my life it's not a matter of getting hurt in rodeo, it's going to happen. It's a matter of how bad. I've seen people paralyzed. I've seen them die. I've seen massive injuries in rodeo. It's going to happen. So you just got to develop that to where the worst thing you can do is die in the arena. And what's wrong with that?
Speaker 2:Corey when, how long after that trip to the hospital in San Diego did you ride again Two weeks?
Speaker 1:God, you know, yeah, that's what we do. Yeah, no, that's what everybody says. You did what. That's what we do, man. I mean God, I've been knocked out at noon.
Speaker 3:I remember getting knocked out at noon and riding again that night. You know it's back then it was getting your bell rung, we laughed and we joked about it. And what needs to happen is a culture change, bruce. We need to change a culture. It's not. Gladiator has been happening since God created Adam and Eve and the second man came on earth. Gladiator started happening.
Speaker 3:Brain damage really didn't come into effect until what. What was it? 90s, I think, is when the first one came about. So what has changed to make this men and warriors mental health? Is it the chemicals in the food, the processed foods? Is it that we hit harder, stronger Is it? I don't know what it is, but we need to look at this as professionals in our three sports you being a green beret, paul being NFL and me being rodeo and go. What has changed to make this worse on us? Why is this happening more frequently and harder as it goes on? One coaches get paid on how they win or they lose a game period. It's not on how. If little Johnny gets a broken leg in practice, if they win Monday night, they don't care. So how do you go about? We need to change the culture. Like you said, bruce, we need to change it to where winning isn't everything but a damn sure is.
Speaker 3:I ain't going to send my military to war without saying go win the war, I'm not going to send an NFL team and say go play football without you winning, or me getting on a bucking horse and saying I ain't here here to ride. Second, I'm here to win, but that's when you get to the upper echelon of life, that's when you get to the pros, that's when you get that. We need to change our high schools. We need to change our peewees. We need to change our junior rodeosos. We need to change the status to where little johnny get bonked in the head coming off of his steer on saturday, that the parents say you're done for at least a month.
Speaker 1:Yeah and it's okay if little johnny's head at a football game.
Speaker 3:The coach say you're out for a month?
Speaker 1:yeah, we'll take the hit as a team. Let the coach say you're out for a month, we'll take the hit as a team. Let me dive on that for a little bit, corey, because I do. I know that when we talk about the military, one of the reasons that we have such a I'd say a more significant problem is that our military has been. Their exposure Some subconcussively is higher than ever, because they've either been training for war or at war, and we have more since 9-11, man, we gave the military everything they want and as guys, you don't want to throw plastic grenades on a shootout, you want to throw flashbangs, you want to feel all that concussive shock, you want to eat the charge on the door. I mean, that's what we do, right, but the issue is that we can do it more often than we ever had. So let me ask you two a question, because I think this goes to one of the issues that is.
Speaker 1:The problem now Is that you know parents are so crazy or they have more money than they did, where maybe they are riding longer and more than they ever could when they were children because they've got the money to do it, or they think they're going rogue. And then now you know, paul, these guys are putting their kids out there at six and they're, of course, in their mind that guy's you right, he's going into the leagues. So they keep them in travel school and they go to, you know, and they play for the town. You can play football year-round now and they played for the town. You can play football year-round now. Or they don't know, and they just like my son, football, wrestling, snowboarding and all that trauma to his brain. I think personally that our kids we're seeing more of this now because their exposure is up compared to when we were kids their age. What do you guys think about that?
Speaker 2:I think there's still only 32 teams in the NFL and there's still only 53 kids guys on an opening day roster and I still think 0.001% of these young seven-year-olds are ever going to even dream of playing in the NFL. So to, to, to put them in, you know, to put them in travel teams and year round sports and football could, could, cuss of sports. I think it's a travesty. I think think really in in football, if football is a sport, it's a, it's a it's a game of inches and it's it's. It's a game that it's of speed and it's a game of agility and it's a game of inches and it's a game of speed and it's a game of agility and it's a game of quickness. It's a game of—and all those things right there.
Speaker 2:Don't take banging your head to get better at. I used to love the four-cone drill I don't even know if they do it anymore or the shuttle drill. I remember doing the shuttle drill and and just trying to get one tenth of a second lower and that and I I started getting really freaking good at it. The you can do so much training for to become a better athlete, the best you can be, and you don't have to do the concussive side of that sport constantly Do you have to, once in a while, get in a goal line scrimmage and you have to get tough and you have to figure out how to get tough and make sure you're on all fours and you just bury your face into the hot hut, you know.
Speaker 2:But interestingly, I watched a lot of film when I could and you can learn. It's the old adage of if you shoot three throws in your mind, or you don't, or you practice shooting three throws Sometimes. I mean, the statistics are, if you picture in your mind over and over, and over and over again, you actually get better at the job. You hit more free throws than not thinking about three throws and then going up and throw with him.
Speaker 2:I was watching film and I saw the center on the field goal. This is what he did just before he snapped the ball. Every single time he moved his hand a half inch and don't you think when I watched that, I watched that 2000 times that week before Miami. And when he went this like that, I was past the guard and the guard was still in his stance, the ball, and I got the ball and the defensive back coming off the quarter, picked it up and ran it in for a touchdown. Just from watching film, watching film. Yeah, I hadn't played against this guy for three years. I didn't watch the film three years before, but I watched it that week, just boom.
Speaker 3:There's an added they're just saying in rodeo, and it works with every sport, every competition, everything. Rodeo is 90% mental, 10% physical. Football is 90% mental, 10% physical. Military, I think, special forces is 90% mental, 10% physical. If your body's trained to do it, muscle memory and everything comes into play. And that's why repeated over and over pays off.
Speaker 3:When I got on my spur board and I spurred, I got down like I was on a bronc. Every time I didn't, I muscle memory, you know. I didn't say, oh, this is just practice, just do this. No, I put my glove on, I cranked it in, I did everything you need to do, a through Z. Why are we beating ourselves up so much? If it's 90% mental and 10% physical, let's get the mind right. Quit on the beating. I had a kid and I'm going to say this and I'm going to say this In the mini barebacks. He was oh, I think he was six came and got on one of my rodeos and he had to get on a little bit bigger of a pony than what I normally put him on and he went off the back, hit his head and got a little concussion. His dad came unglued. The horse was too big. Then he tells me his son got a concussion the week before at another rodeo that I did not know about.
Speaker 1:Dude.
Speaker 3:Are you flipping, kidding me? Yeah, this is where it needs to change. And I went off on him like there was no tomorrow and said you're the biggest moron known to mankind. I had a friend of mine's kid at baseball practice. You're saying it doesn't happen in baseball. They were practice swinging the bat and they were in line. He got hit in the head by a baseball bat.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying concussions don't happen, I'm just saying repetitive concussions don't happen. I'm just saying repetitive cussions don't happen, right.
Speaker 3:And he was in dorm beckers for six months and took over a year to recoup from it. This is what's going on. Is we need to change the culture? And that's what it is is. Mama bears are a little bit more protected than daddy bears. I don't know about that. I don't know about that, but I'm in Texas also.
Speaker 2:Not in.
Speaker 3:Florida. Let me tell you, here in Texas it comes as.
Speaker 1:God and football, and then mama bears, florida's not far behind bro man Florida's not far behind, and then mama bears are at every friday night football game.
Speaker 3:They're at everything. They dress up, they're all about it. And you talk to some of them man, my son's gonna get a d1 scholarship, oh yeah, you know. But you know what I'm proud of you if he does. You know not very many D1 scholarships out there. There's a limited amount of colleges, you know.
Speaker 3:But if you want little Johnny to get that D1 scholarship, how about when he gets that concussion? You take him out for a month or you get him checked until the symptoms go away. And you keep getting him checked. Put him on fish oils to begin with. Paul was right there when my sister-in-law showed up and I think it was her niece or something that had, or her friend had two kids that were getting ready to start football at a young age. They were going to play football. We told them flag. They said football Me. And Paul immediately said said get on some fish oil, get his brain checked before he plays. So you got records, get things done. If he bangs his head, make sure you're willing to take him out of that game and hell with the coach. And that's what we got to do is teach this new environment, this new way of saving our lives.
Speaker 1:And we can't, you know.
Speaker 3:Because I can't survive. This is killing me every day.
Speaker 1:I do when I think of all of God's children that are out there and what we know, right, I mean all right, you know Paul, you know Corey, you guys just had Brett Favre on your show, which I encourage everybody to go to the Head Rush podcast and listen to that podcast. And what did Brett Favre say about his children? They don't play football.
Speaker 3:No, his grandchildren.
Speaker 1:His grandchildren. Yeah, and that's where we've got to get. And then, unfortunately, I run across parents. They don't want to listen. Sometimes it's the wife, sometimes it's the wife, you know, sometimes it's the husband, right, and it's just like well, you know we have to do this. Well, no, you don't. And, um, it's very few.
Speaker 1:Most parents are like wait a minute, what's going on with my kid's head? And that's 90% of them are like you know what? No, and you know we've had fistfights between you know, moms, and like grandmoms or I mean moms and grandmas going no, no, no, you're not doing this to my grandchild. You know you need to listen to this or whatever, not just me, but what it was out there. So your point, corey, and to you, paul, also, is changing the paradigm where we understand that this is an issue. Nobody wants to hurt a child. Yet even after you tell some of these parents right, they're out there, you know, you know, you know pushing their kids. I don't know what the problem is, but that's why I honestly think it's going to take, you know, some form of recognition PSAs to get the words out, because that you know, just by knowledge alone. You know we don't need legislation, even though you know that might have to go that way, who knows? But just by just through the awareness that you guys are helping to bring out there on this issue, more and more parents are going no, we're either going to play a different sport or you can wait till you're 14. There's so many NFL players like yourself. You can wait until you're 14. There's so many NFL players like yourself. Brady didn't start until 14.
Speaker 1:I mean, I was talking to a guy who was on our call, mr IG. He's on the Dallas practice squad. His team in college won I think they were Division III maybe or II, something right but they won in five years four national championships and they never practiced tackling at all. Their coach was some kind of billionaire that made all kinds of money. He's like no, you're going to need this Right now. In my business world I'm coming across guys from Stanford and Harvard that played ball but started late, and these guys are investment gurus. Man, they're managing money. I mean they are so sharp, they're managing money. I mean they are so sharp, but they prioritized their education and they enjoyed football, but they didn't go to college to play football. Football was a path for them and they ended up in the NFL. Both of them right. They ended up in the NFL, they did good.
Speaker 1:But it's changing that paradigm and you guys are helping plow the way to get us there, and my hat's off to you. So look, as we're getting ready to close out, let's talk about the podcast, let's talk about Corey, let's talk about Paul. You know, tell us what you're doing. I think you're going to be at the summit. You know the way people can. So how do people find you right and tell us, you know, what do you guys got planned next? Of course right, and tell us you know what, what do you? What do you guys? What do you guys got planned next? Of course we still got to get you up for the army navy game. That's too much fun. But good, uh, talk to us about the podcast, man, because it is.
Speaker 3:It's amazing what you guys get well, I know right now, on our podcast, we're getting ready to meet with andrew marr oh one, and for the audience sake, who's Andrew Marr? Excuse my French, just like Bruce, a bad-ass Green.
Speaker 1:Beret. Every year there's more stuff to help the brain. Yep, Go for it. No, it is.
Speaker 3:I think, with what Broken Brains does the Mack Parkman Foundation, the Mack Parkman Foundation, karen Zegel with StopCTEorg, the CTE Awareness, patrick Grisha, cte Awareness. I think what you are doing and you said it best, Bruce, and I believe it 300% CTE is not the culprit. That's the end zone, that's, it's it. I mean, who gives a damn?
Speaker 1:about cte. You know when I got. You're dead. You're dead right. Who are worried about this being? Ah? Who cares right?
Speaker 3:you know I'm looking at. I'm looking at doing ibogaine and I'm starting to find out I may not be an applicant because of my central nerve system damage Could be, could be. You know I've done TMS. I see a therapist, I go to vestibular therapy. You know I got little games on my phone that I play. I got a coloring book. I do things to try to keep this thing working the best it can.
Speaker 3:But the best thing that helped me is the two men on this call you and Paul. Paul gave me an ignition because for three months after that car wreck I could never promise you I was going to be alive tomorrow. I couldn't watch TV, I couldn't have a light on. For three months I couldn't have sound. I slept with earplugs and masks and everything. And then you come along and you're that gung-ho Green Beret and I just man dude, you're just awesome in my book and you know how I feel about the military. But you're like there's a better way, corey guys, they ain't, let's go. So you got Paul igniting me on the Facebook, the head rush podcast. I take care of the facebook and I do some of the other stuff and I help get the people on, but it's you two and now you're going there. You're meeting with top military guides. You're going for legislation. You've spent 200 before we hang up this phone. Your research that you paid for is in peer review right now, correct?
Speaker 1:I would have to check that. I don't know if it was submitted by Dr McKee. It was released under JAMA and so it was peer reviewed to that point where it got released by JAMA psychology, which is a big, big, big effect. Yeah, I mean, that was big. And that research that Corey's talking about, we're actually going to re-release that because, you know, the CTE community put it out. As you know, we finally looked at all 132 brains 162 brains and 40% had CTE. That's pretty bad, but what was buried in that study, as you guys know, is 100% of them had damaged brains, 100% of them were mentally ill and 80% of them died by suicide or drug overdose from RHI repetitive aid impacts and they now acknowledge that.
Speaker 1:And it's because of the awareness that we're bringing to this that we can collectively this is not a one foundation gig collectively, this is not a one foundation gig the fact that you're out there, karen's out there so many people are starting to bring attention to this as an issue and it's just going to grow. That summit that we're hosting this year, that I'll talk about after we close next year, it's going to be enormous and you're all part of this movement to understand, to help parents understand that we've done the wrong thing and it's because we were ignorant, we didn't know. Nobody jumps on a buck, nobody puts kids in football, nobody does anything to harm children knowingly to do that. All right people to say look, there's a different way to approach this business that prioritizes our children and their futures as NFL players, as rodeo professionals, as military and rugby players, so they can have the rest of their lives. Because we're given people that go pro only get half a life man After that they struggle and a lot of these. You know, if you're a professional wrestler, professional rugby player, professional football player, professional rodeo guy and we look at the suicide rates, I don't care what anybody says, because you got all these crazy doctors say well, they're no higher than the average. You know of this or whatever. I'm like you can make data. Do whatever you want, bro, because I'm in the data business by day. That's what I do.
Speaker 1:But the issue is that people that have dedicated their life, sometimes to their country when we have a lot of these issues that we don't know happen or to a sport, the rest of their life, we're retiring in our 30s. You cannot be a professional athlete much longer than 30, maybe 40. You can't stay in the Army really past 40 and do your job. If you're a sergeant major, you can be a fat ass guy drinking coffee and, like you know, tell your war stories Okay, you're in management but you're not humping the rock, jumping out of planes. Very few guys do that. So what do you do from 40 to 80, 40 to 70? And we're taking away the futures of dads and grandparents and we don't need to do that and we're all that age right now where we understand this.
Speaker 1:So, man, I really appreciate you guys coming on the call, being part of the fight, carrying that awareness beacon going. I mean, you got an amazing podcast out there. You're bringing in some rock star guests and I think that's amazing. Says a lot about both of you, or you know, paul, it's your questions and Corey's tenacity. However, that works, it's working. So keep driving on. But I honestly wish you both all the peace and joy as you move forward and I thank you for coming on the show Doing a great job.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much forward and I thank you for coming on the show doing a great job. Thank you so much, bruce, and thank you for your service again. And Scott, thank you for your service. If you're our Denny sorry, denny, if you're still on thank you for your service. You know, nothing means more to me than our veterans. I think that goes above and beyond NFL. You know, heroes don't wear helmets, they wear camos. We wear helmets.
Speaker 1:They just they don't have things in front of them. We do wear our helmets.
Speaker 3:man Can't jump around a plane without one, but no, I got you. And so with that, you know, I'm so much for what you do for our veterans and what Mark Gordon does, and Mark Gordon's coming to your seminar and we're going to be there and that's going to be just. I finally get to meet everybody that I've been wanting to meet and learn from people I need to learn from.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a great segue as we close out, man. I thank you both, but real quick, what Corey's talking about. Once again, another amazing podcast, man. What a great group. I love these guys, man, and the things that we have discussed today to talk about the issues of RHI and how we move forward. And we ask you on all accounts to please like, subscribe, push our podcasts around. You can go to Head Rush Podcast. It's right there. Look at their website. Push it around, please. You know it's all about subscribers now to get to the next level and we are moving up. Both of our podcasts are moving up Highly. Encourage you to please pass us around as much as you can. After that, our Army-Navy game special.
Speaker 1:This year, both our Mack Parkman Foundation and Horse Soldiers Berman are putting together events sponsored by Blue Fusion. We're going to have the 90s Band Fuel. It's going to be the only concert at the Army-Navy game. We've got room for 3,000 people. We have multiple veteran service organizations coming. It's going to be full of dignitaries. It's going to be full of action, full of talk, full of chatter, full of networking, and everything that we raise goes to support veterans' mental health treatments. And don't we forget, go to our website. If you want to download a free copy of the book Broken Brains, get a copy of that so you're informed. You go into Apple or Google Store. The HeadSmart app is right there the most robust concussion app in the world right now. It's the only app that covers issues of RHI. It's free. So go out there and get on it and once again, like, subscribe. Let people know what we're doing.
Speaker 1:September 24th, the day that Mac left Big Mac for Mac Day. So get ready to go down to McDonald's and take a picture eating one of those fancy fattening sandwiches, because that's the only time I eat one every year. And then I get a filet of fish because I'm partial to them. But we're going to make McDonald's some money for my boy, mac, back then. But anyways, until the next time. Thank you so much again, corey Paul, for coming on the show, our audience for listening. Just take care of those that you love. They only got one melon. You got to take care of it, god. One melon, you got to take care of it. God bless you all. We'll see you on the next episode of Broken Brains. Take care.