Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is presented by The Mac Parkman Foundation
The mission of this show and the foundation is To serve as a source of information, resources, and communications to the community of parents, coaches/Athletic trainers, medical staff, and athletes that are affected by sports-related concussions and to raise awareness of the long-term implications of concussive and sub-concussive trauma to our children.
Broken Brains will also explore how Concussive Trauma impacts our Service Members and Veterans.
Join us every week as Bruce interviews leaders and experts in various Medical fields, as well as survivors of Concussive trauma.
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman
Is tackle football putting our children’s brains at risk?
In this eye-opening episode of Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman, we sit down with brain injury advocate Keana McMahon to explore the devastating effects of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) and repetitive brain trauma — especially in youth sports like football.
Kiana courageously shares her personal story, reflecting on the tragic loss of her late ex-husband, NFL player Justin Strzelczyk, to CTE — a neurodegenerative disease caused by repeated head injuries. Together, Bruce and Kiana break down the dangers of concussions in youth football, the resistance from sports culture to confront brain health, and why change is critical now more than ever.
🎙 In this powerful episode, we discuss:
· The warning signs and symptoms of CTE
· The role of parents, coaches, and organizations in protecting young athletes
· How the NFL and sports culture have downplayed brain trauma risks
· The importance of flag football over tackle football for youth
· Advocacy efforts and legislation driving brain injury awareness
· What every parent needs to know about concussions and brain health
This conversation is a must-listen for parents, athletes, coaches, and anyone passionate about mental health, player safety, and protecting the next generation from the silent epidemic of brain trauma.
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Support brain injury advocacy and join the conversation about changing the future of sports safety.
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is sponsored by The Mac Parkman Foundation
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Repetitive Brain Trauma
01:52 Kiana McMahon's Personal Journey
04:22 Recognizing Symptoms of CTE
08:34 The Role of Psychologists in Identifying CTE
10:39 Cultural Resistance to Acknowledging CTE
13:05 The NFL's Influence and Advocacy
16:02 Connecting with Advocacy Groups
18:45 Historical Context of Football and Safety
20:33 Legislative Efforts for Safer Sports
24:01 The Importance of Awareness and Education
28:03 Research Findings on Brain Damage
30:11 The Path Forward for Advocacy and Change
32:32 The Hope for Change in Concussion Research
34:25 Taking Action Against Brain Injuries
35:54 Cultural Pressures in Youth Sports
39:56 The Importance of Organized Sports
43:51 The Role of Coaches in Youth Sports
49:10 Changing the Culture of Youth Sports
52:51 Advocating for Brain Health Awareness
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Produced by Security Halt Media
Hey folks, welcome to another episode of Broken Brains with your host, bruce Parkman, sponsored by the Mack Parkman Foundation, where we look at the issue of repetitive brain trauma, primarily in the forms of repetitive head impacts from contact sports and repetitive blast exposure from our veterans, and how these impacts are changing the brains of our athletes and kids and loved ones and causing an epidemic of mental illness that nobody is aware of. And that is why we're on the show. We reach out to the leading researchers and scientists in the space, people that have lived through these tragedies like me, that have been part of these tragedies in their life, and we bring them to you because you need to know this is not addressed, it's not trained in our medical institutions here, and we have hundreds of thousands of people suffering from mental illness in science, unaware that their brain injuries from contact sports and military service could be impacted.
Speaker 1:Today we have another amazing guest on our show today, ms Kiana McMahon, and Ms Kiana is an advocate for brain injury awareness and a vocal critic of the NFL's handling of player safety. As the ex-wife of the late Pittsburgh Steelers lineman Justin Strelzyik, who suffered from chronic traumatic encephalopathy I think he was at least stage three Kiana has shared her firsthand experience of the devastating impact of repetitive head trauma. She has been featured in media discussions about the long-term effects of concussions and continues to raise awareness about player safety, brain health and the need for better protections in contact sports. Oh my gosh, I just listed our entire mission, set with one podcast guest. This is going to be an amazing show, kiana. Thank you so much for coming on the show and being here.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Oh no, this is yeah. I mean obviously. Obviously the issue of repetitive brain trauma, repetitive head impacts in this case, has caused you a lot of tragedy, a lot of pain. And it sounds like you're doing a lot with it. You know we'll start anywhere you want on this one man.
Speaker 2:Well, you asked questions First. My name is Kina Kina. Okay, my bad.
Speaker 1:I'm a product of the Massachusetts public education system, so my bad. I should have asked that, that's okay, that's okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, so you know, we met through an organization that I do work for, stop CTE, headed by Karen Zegel and her husband, doc. We love Karen. Yes, I'm headed by Karen Zegel and her husband Doc, oh, we love.
Speaker 2:Karen, yes, so I met Karen back when the movie Concussion was coming out and she contacted me because it is a story that is about the doctor that discovered CTE If people don't know, dr Bennett Amalu and he discovered this in the first three four NFL players I believe Justin was the fourth to be diagnosed and Karen had contacted me after hearing about the movie and that's how we met and then I met you. So it's a very strange world to be in because, for as big as this problem is the amount of people in it, it's just growing and growing and growing, and a lot of parents don't know the issues that their kids could have later in life due to contact sports. So you know, we're here to kind of talk about that and actually not kind of, but that's what we're here to talk about. Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, you lived through this firsthand. I mean you were married to a professional ball player. It must've been a pretty. I mean it's it's. You know, it's the kind of lifestyle you read about sports and stuff.
Speaker 2:And it's not as grand as people think.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, it's, um, it's not as grand as people think. Okay, yeah, it's not, it's just it's not okay and and and during that time, you know we're, you know the. I mean, what were the changes? And where I'm going with this kina is for parents to understand that there are subtle changes in their husbands that might have played in college and their kids that had been playing ball, any, any contact sport, for a long time. Looking back, like people ask me, look back on my son, right, um, what are some of the changes that you might've seen, uh, with your ex-husband that could have indicated that you know he was on a, you know on a on a different path?
Speaker 2:His personality was that of the wild side to begin with. So some of the things looking back now, maybe it was CTE or maybe it was just a product of who he was, so sometimes it was hard to to figure that out. You know later on and understand that Justin and I were together. We got married in 1993. He quit playing by 98. And these symptoms started to really get worse, I would say around 98, 99. And we separated in 2001. So from 98 to 2001, when he quit playing to when we separated, it was a very fast spiral down.
Speaker 2:Um drinking was a big one and binge drinking, leaving for days at a time. He would, he would leave to take the garbage out and he wouldn't come home for like four days and I had two small children at home. And you know, back then cell phones weren't. They weren't the thing they are now. So it was, you know, I would, I would call bars trying to find him. I, honestly, I always, I always knew in my heart of hearts I was going to get that phone call, that something happened to him and I thought it would be on his motorcycle and I thought it would be on his motorcycle, he'd be drinking.
Speaker 2:But as he progressively got worse from 98 to 2001,. It was a lot of. I thought he had bipolar. I really that was the symptoms that I was seeing Very high highs, very low lows, not showering for sometimes days at a time, no contact, one time when we were separated, one time he was supposed to go away for the weekend and he didn't come home for six weeks and we were separated already and he went out West on his motorcycle and we didn't hear from him for six weeks.
Speaker 2:So very erratic behavior, sometimes depressed call me, you know, crying on the phone that his father passed away.
Speaker 2:And sometimes I look back and I see these triggers, these major things that happened in his life and I wonder if that triggered the CTE and the issues. More, as you know, he got cut from the team, his dad died, his brother was a heroin addict and there was a lot going on within the family and I think all these triggers, you know, coupled with what he had going on in his brain, it was just it was too much. Sometimes, when I look back, I think it was just too much for him to take. He did smoke a lot of marijuana after he was done playing and about six weeks before he died he came to me and he said I'm clean no alcohol, no marijuana. And I know that was true because when he died the talks came back clear. But also I knew him and I just knew he was telling me the truth. And I think sometimes the reality of his life hit him hard when the self medication stopped, so to speak. Right.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean the, I mean during that time. You know, like you know, I used to ask my son how come you don't want to do it? You know he was a very apathetic Right. It was like he never got excited about things. And you know he always had a reason. That made sense, because he was a young man getting ready to join the Army and all that. Did your husband have any reasons for disappearing? Did anybody even associate this thing with his brain or his actual career as a football player?
Speaker 2:Did anybody take that no, absolutely not, absolutely not. And I mean everybody's background's different, and he did hail from a family that had, like I said, his brother was a heroin addict. There was some depression in his family, so I just kept blaming background, blaming genetics, and not thinking it was anything else but that.
Speaker 1:And that's a big problem with our psychologists today is that these kids show up or adults, and they're mentally challenged. They're going through some hard times, obviously right, whether it's self-medication, abuse, violence but they're completely untrained in the issue of repetitive impacts or sub-aggressive trauma, so these issues never get brought up. And so then of course, you know the only therapy is these crazy pharmaceutical drugs that you know don't seem to work.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, that should be the first question that a psychologist or a psychiatrist asks someone that comes into their office Did you play a contact sport? And I think if they started to do that, they would see that more often than not, these people that are coming in play football, they wrestle, whether it be, you know, local rugby, ice hockey. I think they would start to see that, and it's not something that the psychologists and psychiatrists are required to do, and they probably been around this for you know almost 20 years, over 20 years now.
Speaker 1:right, you've seen this. So, in your opinion, why? You know we've been through. You know we'll talk about CTE and our challenges with that whole you know group of people that why is this still, you know, not an issue? I mean, we've been studying CTE since 2009. We've studied the conco. We spent billions of dollars on concussion surveys and research and everybody wants to biomarkers and all this other crazy stuff. Yeah, you have lived this, okay, and I ended up living it. You know, almost 20 years later a little bit less why, when we have seen this so much, is this still not something that is like? I mean, it should be like seatbelts and smoking. Right, it should be. We both know this and you've been in this environment a lot longer than me. Why do you think it's still?
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think that sports, specifically football, is so just ingrained in our culture and men have the dream for their son to go be the football player, the star quarterback. I see youth football in the fields by my house all the time and the dads are coaching. It's just something that I think is so ingrained in our culture that it's really hard for people to want to blame something that has brought them so much joy and brought their family so much joy and they don't want to give it up. It's very hard for people to. I mean, I know people today that their kids are playing football and I'm friends with them and I've had people just unfriend me on Facebook because they don't want to see my posts and so they just go away. It's like out of sight, out of mind and they pretend it's not happening because that's something that is just it's our culture and really that's what I, what I believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, football yeah.
Speaker 2:Being around it. And that's what's so strange to me is I've lived this for, like you said, 20 years and there are people just finding out about it and I'm so far into it and sometimes it baffles me that people don't know about it. Just the average person. I was around a registered nurse. That was like a couple weeks ago.
Speaker 2:I was kind of a medical spa, I'll call it, and we were talking and somehow it got brought up and he was a man, registered nurse, male, and somehow he was talking about his kids playing football and CT got brought up and he didn't know who I was, my background, and he says to me but don't you think it's a little blown out of proportion, like, do they really know? Just sitting there like, yeah, we do. So here's a man who's you know, probably in his late 30s, early 40s, his kids are playing football and he doesn't know. And I think the education's not there. And are the schools or youth football leagues really going to want to educate people and turn them away from their programs, a program that is already losing kids and it will be worse. So yeah, on.
Speaker 1:Twitter, right and uh, and there's a group of them, I think it's called NFL players One of these, uh, uh, one of these little chat groups that I follow, and they, they send out tests and they continuously are striving to try and get some recognition about this issue for their husbands. Now, um, you know, justin played what? Five years, I mean six years, uh, 1990 to 1998.
Speaker 2:to 1998.
Speaker 1:Okay, so he had a long career.
Speaker 1:Eight years Per alignment yes, yeah, and he was alignment, which we know is absolutely the worst position when it comes to our HI, because they get it on every play. Yet to this day, they're still trying to get the NFL to make decisions. You know, what do you think I mean, besides being a religion? There's a lot of power here. There's a lot of money at risk. Have you had any experience with them? You know, pushing back? Or do the wives talk to you about, hey, because this is going to come up in their careers, right, their husbands, you know, going to be dealing with this sooner or later, you know? Do they talk to you about trying to get advice, coping mechanisms or whatever? Not?
Speaker 2:really For a while. When the movie came out I was so inundated with messages on my Facebook and email. It got to be very hard because it is depressing. Right, it's a very depressing topic. I don't talk to anybody in particular, I'm not in.
Speaker 2:I am in a woman's group on Facebook and I try to give advice, but it's so hard to give advice because everybody's story is so different and that's what I've noticed about this disease is the decline in these men. Justin was not violent, but I read these stories where women are, their men are violent or they're suicidal. You know he's trying to jump off the balcony. Justin was not like that.
Speaker 2:So it's very hard to give advice on this topic to individuals just because it's so different and you can't get diagnosed with CTE while you're alive, right. So I read these stories or someone will message me and I hear their story and you know my mind goes 80% sure it's CTE, but it could be something else and maybe he should get checked for that, right? So it's very hard to to give advice on this just because everybody's so different and I don't want people to overlook that it could be something else along with CTE. Is there a possibility that you know it is depression, it is bipolar, let's get that taken care of and and then you know, deal with the CTE or it's just CTE. So it's really hard to give advice. I do talk to some women, do message me or email me, but again it's very hard to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and yet you're still in the game. All right, I mean, I want to tell you how much I admire you for being, you know, 20 years later. You know, karen, and I came to this a little bit later, you know, than you, obviously. I mean, how did you guys connect? How?
Speaker 2:did you find Karen? Well, before, through the concussion movie, but before the concussion movie, actually, there is a documentary that is on Apple TV called the United States of Football. There is a documentary that is on Apple TV called the United States of Football and it was done by a man named Sean Panthelon and he found me through Kyle Turley, who played for the Saints, and I'm friends with Kyle and his wife Stacey Now because of it. Kyle wrote a song about Justin. Kyle had never met Justin, kyle had never met me. Justin passed away and Kyle wrote a song about Justin's passing and I saw it somewhere and I sent his wife a message and was like that was beautiful. I just wanted to say thank you and she said, oh, I want to put you in touch with Kyle. And then Kyle put me in touch with a documentary filmmaker named Sean Pamplon and that he made the United States of football. I'm in that, james Harrison is in that, kyle Turley is in that.
Speaker 2:It's this little known documentary that really did not get all the what it deserved because it was very, very good. And from that documentary deserved because it was very, very good and from that documentary, peter Landesman, who directed and wrote Concussion, found me. He called Sean and said I want to get in touch with Kina. Sean gave him my information. Concussion was made, and then I met Karen because she saw the movie Concussion and she was doing a kind of a viewing party here in Pittsburgh and she was like I would love for you to come. You know we're here in Pittsburgh. And she was like I would love for you to come, you know we're here in Pittsburgh. So that is how I ended up with Karen. The long, the long story of it.
Speaker 1:Karen's awesome man Gosh. We love her man. She's been carrying a torch for a long time.
Speaker 2:She's a trooper yeah, she has. But if you haven't seen that documentary I definitely would watch it, Definitely watch it.
Speaker 1:We'll definitely promote it out there. We had no idea that that exists. We're always coming across these books that people have brought up the issue of. You know there's one called Football is no Game for Children, where this mob just went back and did all this research showing that up until the 40s and 50s there were serious conversations about the violence of football and whether our children should even be playing it Wow and whether you know if it's going to be a gladiator support, only men should be allowed to play this sport. And she went back historically and said look, this conversation, which we really do need to reengage, is out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's hard to get anything done. I know that we talked about karen and we went to congress, went to washington dc to talk to, you know, senators and congressmen about, you know, possibly putting regulations on youth football. But and you know this, when you get into the meat of it, like you say, football is a business. That is the bottom line. And the NFL has funded studies for the NIH. They are, they're in with politics more than I could ever be. So it's very hard to go against such a gigantic corporation that has a thousand more times pulled than I ever will. So it's very frustrating.
Speaker 2:And going back to the wives, you said they're trying to be heard. I just, it's very hard to be heard. People don't want to hear it. They said I have friends that don't want to hear it. They just want their kid to play football. They want to have. So it's really it's a tough place to be. I think that the ability is there to get something passed I would love to see. I mean, in the dream world of my dreams is there's no youth tackle football, it's all flag. And if they have to have it, let's have it at a certain age, right, whether it's 14, when their neck muscles are formed and they're stronger, their bodies are bigger and let's just do flag. I mean that would be the ultimate thing for me to see passed all over the United States, but I don't know that that's going to happen in my lifetime.
Speaker 1:I think that's where litigation comes in and that's where you know I'm not hopeful because I don't want to see football destroyed, but the NFL does not have enough money to deal with all the hundreds of thousands of people. We just did a study here in Florida and I mentioned this on my last podcast that 83% of our inmate population has a history of at least 4.3 TBIs. A lot of them have played football. 43% of our juveniles have the same issue, same ratio, and this is preventative. Like you said, if we move the flag, we could, because it's all about aggregate trauma, as you know, right, I mean, if we took the exposure out of flag. The NFL doesn't play. You know they don't have contact practices and that's where 80% of this exposure comes from. You know your ex-husband, my son as lineman. They got hit on every practice of every scrimmage and then on game day If we eliminated that. And then you know the guys with talent, like your ex-husband, they're going to go to the NFL. Nothing stops native talent.
Speaker 1:So, we, you know what are your perspectives on some of that Just making sports safer, and then we'll talk about the issue of informed consent.
Speaker 2:It's interesting that you say they don't have hitting practice the NFL during the week. Our high school here, which is a great football team, goes to states every year. They don't hit all week and I'm not sure why our high school is not hitting.
Speaker 2:But the youth organization in the same neighborhoods, in the same school district, are hitting. I don't understand, and I think that the ability is. It's just if there was a voice I don't know who higher up in every school district, whether it be, I don't know. The superintendent, now here is, I'm saying this out loud Our youth program is not run by the school, it is run by parents. So you don't, they don't really have anybody to answer to other than someone who's president of the board, which is a dad. So it's really hard and I don't, I don't know that there's a way to, to, to get people to change their minds quickly enough for me. And, like you said, the talent's there, the talent's there, I don't, I don't think that you need to put your kid in tackle football at the age of six. There is zero reason for that.
Speaker 2:And I mean, justin, you and I had talked about this a while back when we were on something together was that Justin did not play football until he was in 10th grade. So it's just not you. You should, you should be. And I say this to women that I meet oh, my husband played in college. I don't care if he's 30 or 45 or 50. Keep your eye on him Like if he played football in college and high school and he's having problems. Later in life he might have CTE.
Speaker 2:So you know, justin didn't play until the 10th grade and he was a really great baseball player and a great pitcher, very talented just so talented athletically. And he blew out his elbow. So his dad took him to the football field in 10th grade and said you're playing football, so he didn't play until 10th grade. So it's just as important to watch people that don't start at six as it is to watch the people that start at six. I don't think you can say, oh, my son didn't play till his junior year of high school and he didn't play college. So no big deal, he's fine. I don't. I don't believe that. I think that you should always be on the lookout.
Speaker 1:I mean, we have no idea how many you know, man. We we get calls from parents whose kids are in their late twenties, late 30s. They played high school and college and now they're struggling horribly.
Speaker 1:They're like well, we didn't know it could be contact sports and then, without the education to your point, nobody's asking the question and I think that's leaving a huge gap. But the fact that your high school team doesn't play, doesn't have contact all week is a great improvement over most of these high schools that are out there, because they're just knocking these kids' brains silly again.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's all week, but I know that they cut back contact. And the interesting side of that is my son, who is 30 now, justin tried to get him to play youth football and we got in a huge fight. I will never forget that. He signed him up and little Justin did not want to go and we were separated at the time and he came over with the helmet and the pads and all the stuff and little Justin was crying he didn't want to go and Justin's yelling at me and I said he does not want to play and he got so at me and I said he does not want to play and he got so mad he threw the helmet and pads across the kitchen and walked out of the door, slammed the door. He was so, so irate and little Justin did not play that year and I think that was like third or fourth grade or something, and little Justin didn't play until actually sixth grade and he did play sixth through 12th grade. We did not know about CT, I think, until he was in ninth grade and at the time when I got the phone call with the results of the testing from Dr Amalu, justin was still in the third or fourth person. So even though they were telling me this, my mind was like that's like four people out of tens of thousands that have played football, that's, that's a, that's nothing like. That's the chances of it happening A little Justin, are so slim.
Speaker 2:But as the years went on right, the numbers climbed and when little Justin was a junior and he started to apply to colleges, he and he didn't start for football. He was like second string offensive line and I brought him home after a game one night and he seemed really like kind of down and I was like are you okay, are you upset? You're not starting? And he looked at me and he goes mom, I don't care. And I go, oh, okay, and he goes. Did you notice? All the colleges I applied to don't even have a football team. I don't want to play. It's what killed dad. I don't want to play. And as a parent that was such a learning lesson Like no only one college he applied to had a football team. I didn't notice, I didn't didn't notice. And so at that point you know, no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Our big problem? Well, not a big problem. But when my son was evaluated, she said, well, your son doesn't have CTE. And I said, well, do you have brain damage? He goes, we had this discussion. She goes. Well, I don't look for it. I'm like why she goes? Why are you asking me these questions? And I said, well, I'm writing a book and I've read all these research papers and I'm absolutely convinced that my son's mental illness was associated with brain damage. She went back and looked she goes, oh my God. And she said would you fund a study? So we gave Boston University a quarter million dollars and I'll send you the study. But what they found? They finally looked at every brain under 30, and this is why I'm so happy your son made this decision First time. They looked for brain damage associated with mental illness and the cause of death.
Speaker 1:100% of those brains had significant structural damage to the brain from RHI blood brain barrier penetration, demyelination, axonal tear whole nine yards gray matter, white matter. 100% of those brains also had severe psychological and emotional disorders and 80% of them died by suicide. Wow, and parents don't know that. No, and only 40% of them, which is still a bad number, had CTE. The rest did not. It is not CTE, it's RHI.
Speaker 2:They now even.
Speaker 1:Dr McKiggis, she goes oh, it's the root cod CT. But to your point, your son innately knew that. You know what I'm done and I wish my son. He didn't want to play that last year and I was waiting for him to call. You know he talked to me in junior year. He's like Dad. I don't think I'm how you feel next year.
Speaker 1:I think the coach might have said something. The players he's under a lot of peer pressures. Oh yes, and he did not say no. And that's another thing that our parents struggle with is the peer pressure from the team, from the coaches, who don't know. They don't know, they just know that this is a good athlete and I want him on the team. They don't know anything about what we're talking about, so who can blame them? Right, but I think that's so we're.
Speaker 1:You know we're now pushing legislation here in Florida. We've got some support for informed consent. So we're looking at this. Look to your point. We're not going to be banned in football. Nobody wants to ban it. Can we make it safer? Absolutely. But what if parents were informed that this was like the, the correlation between smoking and lung cancer, that we now know that RHI causes brain damage? Do you really want your kid to play? So we're thinking that informed consent legislation, especially with the mama bears, right? Folks like Eukena that now understand that wait a minute, this thing might be hurting my kid. Oh no, no, you can tell your coach, you go, you know, stuff it in his pipe, whatever, right? So we think that might be. What's your thoughts on that as an approach to trying to address this issue through legislation an approach to trying to address this issue through legislation.
Speaker 2:I think that it can be done. I think that I think it's a long road. I also feel like today there's so much going on politically that sometimes things get put like this Well, they get put on.
Speaker 2:it's sad, but it gets put on the back burner. Right, our issues get put on the back burner because there's so many. There's just bigger issues that are being thrown on their desk every day and that's that's hard, because I know that there are people out there, like when we went to Congress, that really listened to us and and, like you, could see light bulbs go off in their head when we and this was 10 years ago, right there was one congressman and he was really big into. His platform was foster care for children, and I said to him I want you to think about all the kids that come out of foster care that end up with problems that end up in prison. Me, if the abuse that they took in foster care resulted in these brain injuries that made them go crazy or whatever people want to say, you know turn to drugs or, you know, become depressed, they end up on the street. I think that the prison system I'm getting off topic.
Speaker 1:No, this is all on topic.
Speaker 2:I think the prison system is such a great place for us to start to test. I wish that we had the ability to test every man in prison when they pass away for CTE, and I'm going to guess those numbers are so high it would be mind blowing. And then let's look at their background. Were they in foster care? Were they abused? Did they play contact sports? What were their symptoms?
Speaker 2:I really think that that's one of the places that we would see a lot of CTE, along with veterans, I think, military veterans, with veterans, I think military veterans. I'm sure not every single one that passes away gets tested for it. So, and I think the numbers there would be really high too. I think there's hope. Like I said, I saw light bulbs go off and I could see these congressmen and women be like oh, oh, okay, Because they don't even know and we're bringing this news to them and the research to them and it really it opens their eyes. So I think there's hope. I just I wish it would happen faster. I'm an I want it done now, tomorrow, person and that's not happening.
Speaker 1:No, but every time people listen to the show or listen to you speak or read the book or whatever it's happening, I think there's more hope than ever. You know when.
Speaker 1:I wrote the book. You know I started focusing on subcustom trauma. There was only two papers out there I could find on subcustom trauma. Now you type it in, you type in RHI and google is loaded up with studies. Nobody's studying cte anymore because it's not the problem. You die with it. You don't die from it, you die from the mental illness that's caused by the damage to your brain and yada, yada, um. So we're hoping to see that you know that research is now going to culminate in action, because I am just done with people researching concussions. I was like we've done enough research on concussions. Man, it's all about money and that's its own industry. Research community is its own self-licking ice cream cone over there where they just keep researching stuff and they don't take action. But you're taking action. So talk to us a little bit about what are you doing in this battle. It's long, ongoing battle.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm doing. I'm doing whatever Karen does. Yeah, I really I do follow whatever she wants me to do, whether it's interviews or going to Congress or news articles. I think that the day-to-day thing I do is sharing my story, especially in some of these private Facebook groups with women. It's very sad and it's very hard to hear their story, but they need to be heard and sometimes they're. You know, you just said about the people and sometimes they get with somebody who can help their husband and the person just takes their money, like there's you know people doing, you know concussion help and I think that when you have CTE or the you know traumatic brain injuries and things, it's just so different for everybody that I don't. Everybody's story is just so different. I got lost there for a second.
Speaker 1:Happens to me every time.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, but you know, one of the things we talked about on that podcast is, you know, women getting completely domineered by their husband because your kids are going to play football and they're like where's the science, where's the research? Help me, help me, help me defend my kids.
Speaker 2:And no woman should be in that position, because there is research, there is there are stories like yours but when you have someone whose dad played and they played, and grandfather played, and I have three boys and they're going to play, it's so our culture, and I mean I, you know, when Justin, I had that fight about little Justin, I I'm the kind of woman that's not afraid to stand up to tell my husband now, but there are women that will not do that and their kids will be on that field and I, I just can't. I just I just it's really hard when I even drive past the youth football fields to watch.
Speaker 1:I was at a red light the other day and this mom with a nine-year-old at least was walking across and she had his pads and his helmet and I was all the way over in the far side lane and I couldn't get to them because I was at the front of the red light and I was like shoot. And I drove as fast as I could but there's no way I could have made the turn because I was going over a big bridge to get back. But my heart, I was like do you know what you're doing to your son? So now I'm going back with books and I'm going to hand them out in the parking lot to do something, because I was just Well, be careful, I know one time we left brochures all over cars, okay, and used football practice.
Speaker 2:Oh, I do. You'll get a call from the school district pretty quick if you do that.
Speaker 1:Oh no, it's the school. And just so you know, here in Manatee County we had the Police Activity League transition from tackle to flag football. Really, yep, we told them our son's story, we showed him showed him the book. They listened. I said this for real, I go absolutely. And they go. You know what? We've been wanting to do this? Because now we can invite girls to flag and get, because it's all about disenfranchised children and they were so excited.
Speaker 1:So we have the first PAL converted over to flag and we're trying to get more movement there, because you know I'm just done of listening that, ah, you know we're. You know we're either from a, you know, a certain demographic or a certain race, and that football's our only way out.
Speaker 2:And I'm like your child has a better chance of becoming an accountant, a doctor, a lawyer than they do, of getting in the NFL bud, okay, but the dreams I always say hope is a very powerful thing.
Speaker 1:Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 2:And they hope that their kid's the one, that's the kid that's going to be Patrick Mahomes. You know and you're right, the chances are so slim they're not even chances, I think you could probably buy a lottery ticket, almost have a better chance.
Speaker 1:It's like don't stop, you know wasting your kids future.
Speaker 2:Easy to me that people I have. My youngest plays baseball and he is very, very good. I have zero thought that he will play in college and he's like a very good baseball player. I just don't understand.
Speaker 1:You know the odds.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the odds are so slim, and even Justin's odds. He was drafted 298 out of 300 people.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:He played defense in college and he was a test for Chuck Knoll. Chuck Knoll wanted to see if he could take a D lineman and turn him into an O lineman. He shouldn't have made it a year but he did. I mean his odds were just a miracle of all miracles for him, but he was. You know, he was like go back to just naturally talented, you know, for six foot six, 300 pounds. When he skied down a mountain he made it look graceful.
Speaker 1:He did. It was crazy.
Speaker 2:He was a good dancer, he just was just had that talent and I think that you know some kids have that and those are the kids we see that make it and they're just, they're far and few between. There's so many kids playing football today and all the other sports. And to go back, earlier you were saying like it is important for our kids to be in organized sports. Right, it teaches them something. I really believe that you know and the camaraderie with your friends and the respect for your coaches and your peers that can be taught with flag football. It does not have to be tackle and I'm hoping with flag football going into the Olympics people will be a little more like, oh, flag football is cool.
Speaker 1:It's got to be cool yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I mean, that is, I don't know about your school. Our high school football is no cut, so anyone can join the team. Oh, okay, yeah. School football is no cut, so anyone can join the team. Oh, okay, yeah, so our our in pennsylvania. Each high school has to have two no-cut sports. Ours is indoor track and football. So there are kids that play day in, day out and practice every day that don't even see the field. I think Justin's year there was 65 kids on the team.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And it's a big deal on Friday to wear your jersey to school right Heck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's cool. That's why they join man. Yeah, absolutely. That is why they join Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:No other baseball doesn't do that, hockey doesn't do that. You walk in the volunteer room on friday with your jersey on, you are special and that's just how it is, and you know so. There are kids, like I said, in our district that will never see the field, but they still practice and they're still getting some hit. I'm you know, I'm sure some hits in practice, even though our high school cut back. Just because they didn't start doesn't mean they're not going to end up with a problem, and they all played youth football at some point, so they were definitely hitting when they were young. Does your school not do no-cut?
Speaker 1:Well, on the school that Mac played on, it was a private school and we were a small school. We were like Division 5 out of 5. We had to travel. We're not a Division 1. We had to go play the farm teams right out there.
Speaker 1:We weren't allowed to play the public school system. It was kind of weird. We wrestled against them, because Mac was a wrestler and a football player, but we didn't play against them. It was something about the size of our team. So we took anybody, we took all the homeschool kids and we had an awesome coach. God, I love this guy to this day.
Speaker 2:I mean Mac's departure, you know really, but he's an amazing guy, that's important the coach, the coach that has experience, because a lot of these youth kids you're saying you love that coach, like our high school coach. He's phenomenal. He's been at this for 20 plus years and he's just wonderful, but you have dads teaching at the youth level. That shouldn't be.
Speaker 1:They all think they're Chuck Knoll, Bill Belichick, right? Yes?
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's just I's. I mean my son. When he played in sixth grade, his coach was just a crazy dad and you need coaches with experience and coaches you trust and I, I think I believe our high school coach was, is still he's still there is amazing. If you had a problem and you went to him, he sincerely listened to you.
Speaker 2:When Justin played by his senior year, I went to him and I was like, just because, knowing at this point we know, ct happened and I said, would it be okay I went to the athletic director and the coach if I bought Justin his own helmet, and just for me to feel better as a parent, and they said yes, absolutely. And just for me to feel better as a parent, and they said yes, absolutely. So you know, I think when you have experienced coaches, that will sit and listen to you, that's important, that's really important as a parent, and I think that you can, if you can, have a conversation with them about your concerns, I think they really do take that into consideration and that's probably one of the reasons our high school cut back on, you know, every day tackle. They don't, they don't, they don't do it every day in practice.
Speaker 1:They are getting smarter. I know that the coach that replaced the coach that we love we love him too he they have reduced contact by over 60% now they they've stopped. They're doing a lot of drills. You know, and we've been, we've been talking, you know us in the school. I'm actually doing a video for them and for the parents right now to be aware of this issue, because you know you can even though our school is not con, you know practicing contact you like, to your point. If they're playing on the, on the public school, on the public team or one of the for profit leagues, nobody's going to stop that crazy dad from thinking it's okay to start smacking each other, right.
Speaker 1:So as long as parents are aware of RHI as an issue, then they can make better decisions about you know what you know? One sport and that's it for the rest of the year. You're going to play baseball. You're going to play tiddlywinks.
Speaker 1:I don't care what you play, you're not playing, you know, and that's. You know, my son, heck, I was so proud of him. I told him just before he died I'm like son, I'm so proud of you, he goes why? I said, dude, I'm the only two sport parent in school, you're the only wrestling football guy. And here I am all proud of my boy, some kid, you know. And then you know, three weeks later he's not around and I'm just, you know, and I'm encouraging him, right, and I'm like, because I'm so, I have no idea, even though semi-pro rugby player massive concussions, knockouts on the field all the time got my own issues and I'm out here, you know, unknowingly, you know, you know so it's not, not fault, I mean.
Speaker 2:so many parents are like that. We're 6A, our school, which is the biggest Wow, you got six very few two-sport athletes come out of our school district because it's so competitive and it's so hard to do that because most sports, football included, they're year-round.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the other issue.
Speaker 2:Our team starts training I mean just weight training in January, mid-january, and most of the time, and even this year, they went to states, so that doesn't end until Christmastime, and by the end of January they're backuary, and most of the time, and even this year, they went to States, so that doesn't end until Christmas time, and by the end of January they're back in the weight room. It is, it is, and baseball is the same way. My son does travel baseball in the summer, he does indoor training in the winter and he's back at school in the spring. So it's very hard to be a two-sport athlete. So for Mac, that's amazing, it really is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you would have picked one of them, that would have been a lot better. But here we are, but my husband, my husband, my husband now.
Speaker 2:He wrestled and played football and baseball A little smaller school. Sometimes it's hard to pick one when you have your peers and your parents saying how proud, how awesome, look at you and you know that's. That's hard to quit and he just wanted to be with the guys you know you.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned why sports. He played these sports to be with his friends. I mean, he was good. He wasn't going to go play in college, like you said, but he was good and he had fun and all that stuff. And that's our point is that you know he should be here and Justin should be here and everybody we know that's going through this tragedy. Karen's son, patrick, should be here. If we would pay attention to this issue and make you know better decisions, informed decisions and better public policy. And we think that you know by you know mandating that you know practices one week, you still practice one day a week. You know, okay, leave, save it for game day.
Speaker 1:You can't take a practice out of the game and then flag till 14. And then one sport. Like you said, you can't play football year round. It's not healthy. You know, you don't allow your kid to eat at mcdonald's every darn day or drink soda break. Give them, give them a break. Give the break the only thing they have.
Speaker 2:That's going to determine who they are, and I think you know a lot of fear is and I I know this is that well, if my kid doesn't, he's not gonna, if he doesn't work out all year round, he's not gonna be on't, he's not going to. If he doesn't work out all year round, he's not going to be on the team, he's not going to, he's not going to play, he's not going to see playing time. And he will if he's talented enough, he will he will.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, but I mean, but it also comes from the top. You have NFL players that play hurt. They play sick. Justin played a whole game with sepsis and I had to take him straight to the hospital after and he was on an IV drip for five days at our home and then turned around and left and went to Kansas on Saturday and was back on that field. He had sepsis and he still did not miss a game.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's. That's the kind of culture it is, though, unfortunately, um, I had two. I had two. Both our children were were due in January, and I hear this all the time. So-and-so's wife just gave birth and he's on the field today. I had inductions because at the time the Steelers were going so far into the playoffs, I had inductions planned if they made it to the Super Bowl. So you don't miss. I mean you just don't miss.
Speaker 2:And that's the kind of culture, it is right, and so it trickles down to the colleges, the high schools, the middle schools. You know, if you miss someone, there's always somebody better to take your spot, and that's, that's a fear that that kids have, um, probably mainly from what they hear. You know, even on TV, watching an NFL game, you know he's back out there and he was in the hospital last week and he's, you know, playing through a hurt ankle and it's that push, push, push, push, push, push, push. And it shouldn't be like that. Unfortunately it is.
Speaker 1:Got to let our kids be good kids. And yeah, it's not about winning. Sports are great. It's about camaraderie, loyalty. The physical part is all about having fun. Sports should not hurt our children, I think, and shouldn't hurt our adults either. I think we're gonna we're gonna make a lot of positive gain there this year.
Speaker 2:I hope, I hope so. I really do ever. I'm just waiting for the day we can bring it a little easier, knowing that the youth that I always focus, that the youth would just quit tackle that. That would be such a great start yeah it's really hard to watch.
Speaker 2:I don't. There's, there's no purpose for the tackling for six year old, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve. Let them grow, let them let their brains grow, let their brains, their brains are still growing and that's it. Like you said, you wouldn't feed the the McDonald's every day. Why are you letting them do this? And some parents? Well, it's only just in the fall and that's enough for me, right, as a parent, but that's me.
Speaker 1:No, it's, it's, it's. I think we're coming to that day Kina. Well, we're going to be able to do that, yeah.
Speaker 2:I believe you.
Speaker 1:I am pushing you and I know you and Karen have been pushing it together. We're going to get this one over the line. I think the time's right and I think people are willing to listen. I mean, football attendance was down this year, football participation's down, and I talk to these younger generations. They don't even care about football, which is like what. They go I don't watch football, I'm like you don't, yeah, and so football needs to get ahead of this.
Speaker 1:They need to start reaching out and I think if they could actually make the move and I'm trying to talk to a couple NFL owners right now say, look, if you actually own this and you threw Pop Warner under the bus and just knocked that and made it all flag and recommended these changes and promoted brain safety and brain health, not concussion safety we could make brain health a priority. Oh my gosh, you could save the sport.
Speaker 2:And you think that they would jump all over that because they would look like really good guys, right they?
Speaker 1:would yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean the optics, for that would actually probably bring kids back to play. They've lost a lot of youth, right, I mean? And I know they put the money behind Pop Warner. So you know, if they started that trend, I think they would see an increase in youth playing flag and let them decide later in life if they want to continue with tackle. I mean, that's such a no-brainer to me as an owner, as an NFL owner, just because I would look really good, because right now they're not looking too great, you know.
Speaker 1:No, and the longer this goes on you know. Why did you shorten the kickoff distances? Why do you wear those hats? You're admitting that you have a problem. You haven't said it yet. But when society starts understanding that you've known about this for a long time?
Speaker 2:Oh, so long, and you didn't make these changes.
Speaker 1:They're going to eat your lunch man so long.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're going to see a lot of change.
Speaker 1:They're going to figure out how to get in that pocketbook, and then you're going to be hurt, man, and so, yeah, it's very true. Well, keena, as we close out, talk to us a little bit about you know where can they find you or your story? Or you know, in stopcteorg, where can they go to you, know, learn more about this.
Speaker 2:Stopcteorg that is. Stopcteorg is the main organization that I work with. You know, if anybody ever wants to get a hold of me, karen will forward me emails or contacts that have questions. Right now is working with StopCTorg on stopping the youth tackle, getting parents educated at that level, getting them educated early and often so that they know what we know, because unfortunately, a very high percentage of parents that are letting their kids do the youth tackle don't know, but we want to give them as much information.
Speaker 2:Go to the website there's so much information there, as I'm sure there is on your website that you can start to this conversation, whether it be with your husband or your significant other or your child, or just within your own inner self, like is this what I really want for my child? I think you really need to. There are times in your life as a parent, as a mother, specifically, you really need to take a stand, and this is probably the biggest one to me is your child's brain health, their safety. They're still growing. Go to stopctorg, read about it and help us spread the word.
Speaker 1:Really, stopctorg, read about it and help us spread the word. Really Well, kena, thank you so much for your time today.
Speaker 2:You are an amazing spokesman on this issue. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And I think your clarity, your experience and your guidance are going to help us all make sports safer and protect these children.
Speaker 2:I hope so.
Speaker 1:Yep, we'll get it. Well, we're starting this journey and we're going. You know we're going to make it happen, but thank you so much.
Speaker 2:I'm here for you, whatever you need. You know where to find me? Oh, we'll find you.
Speaker 1:We're going to see you at the conference in.
Speaker 1:September. Speaking of which you know they'll always close out. Remember, we got a free book. It's on our website. It's on our website. Go get it. Stopctorg Endorse this. They said every parent should read this book. I didn't write it for nothing, so go get the book and get on there.
Speaker 1:We got the Town Hall for Veterans on the 28th of March. That's going to be a great time. We're going to talk about repetitive blast exposure, mental health and how to get coverage from the VA. We're going to be doing date pretty soon. That's going to be an open seminar. Whether you played in college, whether you played in the NFL or you played as a youth and you're having issues you know somebody has done, come get the information you need to take better care of them. There's a lot of hope out there that we're not even talking about.
Speaker 1:And our second annual conference on repetitive brain trauma the only one in the world it can help in conjunction with StopCTorg and Keena and Karen, will be the September 3rd and 4th this year. We can't wait to see you all there. Here in Tampa, we only have so many seats. We better start jumping on now. Amazing panel speakers coming up, but thank you all. So much, keena. To you, karen StopCTorg. Thank you for your time and we'll see you all in the next episode of Broken Brains. Take care, have a great one, thank you.