Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is presented by The Mac Parkman Foundation
The mission of this show and the foundation is To serve as a source of information, resources, and communications to the community of parents, coaches/Athletic trainers, medical staff, and athletes that are affected by sports-related concussions and to raise awareness of the long-term implications of concussive and sub-concussive trauma to our children.
Broken Brains will also explore how Concussive Trauma impacts our Service Members and Veterans.
Join us every week as Bruce interviews leaders and experts in various Medical fields, as well as survivors of Concussive trauma.
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman
Ashton Kroner’s TBI Recovery Journey: Breaking the Stigma in Brain Health
In this impactful episode of Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman, Bruce is joined by Ashton Kroner, a Marine Corps veteran and advocate for brain health. Together, they tackle the critical issue of traumatic brain injuries (TBI) and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in veterans and athletes. Ashton opens up about her personal journey with repetitive brain trauma, the stigma surrounding mental health in the military, and the innovative treatments that helped her recover.The conversation highlights the groundbreaking work at the Haley Brain Wellness Program, where Ashton focuses on providing integrative care for veterans suffering from TBIs. Key topics include the importance of vestibular treatment, case management, and community support in long-term recovery, as well as the potential of psychedelics in mental health care. Ashton emphasizes that while brain trauma may feel overwhelming, recovery is possible with the right support and resources.
Join the conversation on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts to learn about innovative solutions in brain health. Don’t forget to like, share, follow, and subscribe to support this vital message!
Tune in now to learn how understanding this vital connection can revolutionize recovery and brain health. Don’t forget to follow, share, like, and subscribe on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple Podcasts to support this vital conversation!
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Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is sponsored by The Mac Parkman Foundation
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Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Repetitive Brain Trauma
05:59 The Stigma of Mental Health in the Military
11:56 Therapeutic Approaches to Recovery
17:50 The Haley Brain Wellness Program
24:54 Understanding Vestibular Health and Treatment
30:27 The Need for Specialized Brain Health Care
40:55 Identifying TBI Symptoms and Accessing Care
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Connect with Ashton today!
LinkedIn: Ashton Kroner
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashtonkroner/
Website: AvalonActionAlliance.org
https://www.avalonactionalliance.org/
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Enjoy food, beverages, and live music by Razor’s Edge, one of the top-perform
Produced by Security Halt Media
Hey folks, welcome back to another episode of Broken Brains with yours truly Bruce Parkman, sponsored by the Mack Parkman Foundation. Our show is focused on the issue of repetitive brain trauma in the forms of repetitive head impacts and contact sports and repetitive blast injuries for our veterans, and how these injuries are affecting our veterans, our kids, our adult populations, and how we as a society don't know much about the damage that this is causing and why we need the change. So every week we find the most amazing set of podcast guests out there that we bring on the show to educate you, because our doctors, our nurses, our psychiatrists are not informed and our veteran administrators, our medical care professionals for the VA, are not informed of this issue, and you must be educated in order to best protect you and the ones you love. Today we have another exciting guest on our show Ms Ashton Kroener.
Speaker 1:She served in the Marine Corps as a field radio operator During her tour. She deployed in 2009 in support of OIF and received orders as a lioness attached for 1st Battalion, 8th Marines, at Al-Takadam Air Base. In 2011, she redeployed to Camp Leatherneck in support of OEF with the 8th Communications Battalion, and then for 2012 and 2015,. She had the hardest job in the military, which is a recruiter. During her time in service, she unfortunately suffered multiple traumatic brain injuries and chronic PTSD that she's dealt with for years and she's been a significant part. She spent a significant part of her post-military career dealing with PTSD and finding her path to recovery and into a full life, and she's been through the Leon J Haley Brain Wellness Program and she's part of it right now, where she focuses on these challenges. So she has turned her service into service for her fellow veteran operators in order to help them regain their quality of life.
Speaker 1:She's completed a bachelor's degree from Purdue University, graduating summa cum laude congratulations in July 2018, and got her MBA from Purdue in 2021. No small achievements right there. And she worked at a road home program as outreach manager prior to joining the Haley Brain Wellness Program, and she's now the Associate Director of Development at the University of Florida Health, a Leon J Haley Brain Wellness Program, which is where she spends a lot of her time giving up, and she follows her time with the Marine Corps League. Now I've told my producer I don't want any more Marines on this darn show, but he keeps telling me he keeps finding you guys and, of course, we've known each other for a long time and, ashton, honestly, since I've known you and I've met you at so many events and understanding your commitment to our veteran corps is unbelievable. And taking what you have gone through and turning that into servicing our veterans, and that just selfless love that comes out of you is awesome. So tell us a little bit about yourself and tell us about these TBIs that unfortunately got you on this program.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, first, thanks for having me. I always like being able to spend time with you and you know hearing about all the things that you've been up to. But so you know a little bit about me. I mean, I did serve, you know, obviously, eight years in the Marine Corps. You did a wonderful job recapping, you know, my life, but yeah, I served eight years in the Marine Corps.
Speaker 2:Actually, I grew up in, you know, in small town, texas, kind of jumped around a little bit, but you know, I always knew that I was going to serve the military in some sort of, you know, capacity. Of course, back then I was wanting to do infantry and infantry wasn't allowed, you know, for females. I wanted to be, you know where all the action was. But you know almost didn't join the military because I had two head injuries prior to even joining. You know, one of them, probably more extreme, was actually an equine accident where I got kicked in the back of my head, so that almost ended.
Speaker 2:You know my ability to serve right then and there. But you know, luckily I was able to, um, you know, kind of move past that senior year of high school, you know, diving accident, swimming and diving team. So I had, uh, you know, my, my second head injury and you know, with uh, with that and you know some of the common symptoms that you, you know, that you see and that you kind of advocate for Bruce, um, you know, like that line, sensitivity, poor concentration, you know, those types of things really kind of started impacting me then and there, but I knew I was still going to serve. So, uh, senior year I enlisted and to uh, my beloved Marine Corps, which 249, you know, years this year really excited about uh next year's celebration.
Speaker 1:Happy birthday and nobody's proud of their birthday. We can't even get. I don't even know what the army birthday is. No, that's. That's tragic man. We don't even have army balls. What you guys do with your birthday is through the roof, and I do. I do respect it so much.
Speaker 2:Oh it's, it's great. You know we always try to sit there and bring in the other branches so they get a small taste of of what it's like to really celebrate. So I might have to invite you next year to one of our, one of our ceremonies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, All about it. I've been teaching Marines and Navy SEALs how to drink for 35 years, so you know I'm out of practice right now.
Speaker 2:We were born in a bar. You know Marine Corps. We were born in a bar. You can't you can't not Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I love it, yeah, but yeah, no, throughout my military you know my military experience you know I got a lot of really cool things, you know, starting from my first deployment getting to volunteer as team lioness, um, which, for those that don't know, that's where, um, you actually get partnered up with a infantry unit or, you know, a soft unit to be able to, you know, really gather, you know, intel information and and talk to the locals, um, you know that are, uh, that are in country, and so I did that, for, you know, for a short time, um, and then, you know, for a short time, and then, you know, went back to my parent command. Whenever I actually came back from my first first deployment, we started doing training. You know training exercises gearing up for Afghanistan. I was put into a one of those Humvee rollover simulations and, you know, somebody lost control of the rifle, you know, side of the head, which is always a good feeling.
Speaker 2:It's interesting about the military, though, and I know, for those that have served, you know, you always kind of hear those words malingering and suck it up, and you know all those things, and so I was really worried about, you know, how that would impact my military career, and so I was sitting there, you know utilizing, um, you know really a lot of self-medication, you know, and in regards to you know kind of treating, you know, my, my head injury, and it wasn't working. I mean what you know military, they would sit there and prescribe you those 800 milligrams of ibuprofen and and everything, and I was taking three or four of those Ranger candies is what we call them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and they're taking like three or four of those at a time, you know, going well past the, uh, the dosage, um, you know, just to be able to see straight again. But, yeah know, I mean again, learning from a different country is always exciting. But, um, got bored, started doing my um, mixed martial arts, trying to get my black belt, and, you know, got thrown shoulder, thrown across the room. Uh, another training accident which, uh, you know, honestly, like all my head injuries, seem to be more accidents than actual big catastrophic things that you see in the movies.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, so I mean, after getting out of the military, I mean I struggled. I mean I think a lot of stories that I encounter are people struggling, silently, struggling at that, and so, for me, I really wanted to be able to. Once I got past my initial issues, got diagnosed with PTSD and my TBI, I started getting help, like I wanted to be able to help others, and that's exactly, you know, kind of what drove me into the work that I'm doing now is me. It's all about prevention versus intervention, because it came down to the point where I almost needed intervention to be able to help get me back on my feet in a good place.
Speaker 1:So I want to be able to do the same thing for others. So tell us about you know back then, because we, you know, I talked to a lot of vets and actually I was just at a, a closed session on brain health with the military and um, you know, the stigma keeps coming up, like you talk about you know getting, you know, your, your, your TBIs from. You know, training, um, regardless how you get them in the military, you, you know, when you get them, military kind of owns these, cause you wouldn't have been in a Humvee rollover and you wouldn't be trying to get your black belt, Cause you got to stay sane in these combat zones, because otherwise you just eat. Because there's food everywhere, right, you're working out or you're on mission, right, but you talk about not wanting to talk about your head injury. So talk about the stigma and um, and what you know, what it is about the military, cause I've lived it, you know we you don't talk. You don't talk about when your ankles twisted. You don't talk about anything man, that that could, you know, show weakness, right, and especially when it comes from up here, because then you start looking at not being able to do your job and the military takes it weird.
Speaker 1:So back then, which was not a long time ago, but it was still a different military than it is now when it looks at mental health, what were your challenges? You know understanding that. Hey man, I've got. You know, I've had two TBIs, you know pretty severe ones. You know whatever your symptoms were. But I'm just going to suck it up. Why didn't you go to your command? So and so Well.
Speaker 2:I think there was a couple of reasons that you know at play. One I was worried about, you know, the stigma surrounding, like you know, my service members, cause we had and I think females specifically have a really hard time, you know, on on that Cause you have some, you know, at least during my service, you know you had some females that you know we're trying to get out of. You know, deploying, and I never that was never me I always wanted to go on deployment, um, I'd sit there and volunteer for everything, and so I was really worried about that stigma of you know I'm just going to be a kind of like a, you know, a deadbeat basically, or a malinger. You know I just didn't want to be labeled like that. And it starts with the command. You know just that, that toxicity, you know we would always sit there and cause I was at Camp Lejeune and so the side floor, I believe, was on the fourth floor, and so they were like oh, if you go to the fourth floor, you know you're going to see the wizard, you know you'll never come back. And so there's that fear too. You know, like when mean there was that. You know that worry that it was going to impact my ability to do my job. You know it was going to impact how others perceive me. And then there was the fact of like what, if this is actually serious, you know, and this could actually just in my military career in general, and so, you know, for me it was easier just to kind of suck it up and not talk about it.
Speaker 2:Now I will say that I know that there are other, you know that there were others around me that were kind of seeing a little bit of shift, especially with my husband. You know we had been dating at the time Actually, no, we just got married and you know he was starting to see that shift. My parents have been talking about seeing that shift, and so those that were like that knew me prior to my first deployment versus, you know. Now you know they got to see that the start and shifts in my personality and how I was perceiving things. I was doing things a little bit more riskier than others, but then I always chopped it up to.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a Marine, marines do risky things, we do dumb decisions, and so for me I was always just trying to prove that there was nothing wrong, that I could be just as better, or you know, just as good, if not better, than you know those that I was serving with and you know it seems to always have a competition between the males and the females. You know, to prove who was better. And you know, like I said, I that's why you know joined Team Lioness and you know I was volunteering for everything that I could. They just kept on sending me to the desert. You know, every time I volunteered to go on a meal or something, but it was just a good I mean, I was like it was. It was a good experience, but at the same time I could see how that impacts my health. You know, today I wish I, I wish there were things I'd done differently when I was younger.
Speaker 1:And, and so do you think you could have you would have approached this problem in the same command environment a little bit differently than I mean. Cause you did say you were, you were medicating, and we all deal with, you know, medication a lot of times to deal with our, our, our, our mental health and, um, were you ever like diagnosed? Did you ever get a brain scan or you know, or did you just eat it until you got out and then decided to get help? Is that pretty much the course?
Speaker 2:So it was interesting. So I think it was in between, I think it was in between deployments, like right before I was like deploying to Afghanistan, they actually did a scan and a memory test to see how you know, kind of like my baseline, which I find really ironic because my baseline, you know, prior to my first deployment is really where that should have been happening, or really even before then at maps. You know, whenever you go to, you know, unless that, you know that should be a standardized you know, just because of all the training accidents that occur, to include even going through recruit training. So for me I think that you know, kind of looking back on you know, like my thing, like you know, like with my first head injury in the military, you know there was a corpsman on scene but I was downplaying everything. Again, we're getting ready to do a you know deployment. We had already lost, you know, one of our service members on the first half of the deployment. You know we were the replacement and so you know I was really worried about you know, like, oh, people are going to sit there and think that you know, I don't want to. You know, go because it's more dangerous. You know deployment or, um, just trying to get out of it. And so I sat there and I talked to the form and I'm like, no, I'm fine, despite me being knocked out. Um, I mean, I lost consciousness for for a few seconds and you know they clearly saw. I mean all the signs were there that I had a confession. And you know they took me at face value and you know kind of left, and I ended up going back a couple of days later, you know, complaining of migraines, and so they gave me ibuprofen and you know I'm sitting there popping that like candy, like Tic Tacs and all that, and, and you know, nothing was really happening.
Speaker 2:And when I was on deployment, you know again, deployment is very, very different. You know experience. So you know we were. You know we had a corpsman on scene, you know, for any type of, you know, training in regards to the mixed martial arts, and so we had somebody on, you know at least in our unit that were able to, you know, be there whenever I you know what I got thrown.
Speaker 2:I got my bell wrong a little bit on that one too, cause I remember just being dizzy and I was worried about being sent home, you know, despite me not wanting to be there, you know, I was like, yeah, I'm on deployment, I'm having a good time, but you know, I also miss being home with my family and that probably would have been my ticket, you know, home. But I was so worried again about that stigma and so I just, you know, again I sucked it up until after I got out of the military and even then, like when I first got out of the military, I didn't go, you know, I didn't claim, uh, you know PTSD or you know TBI, because one I didn't know what a traumatic brain injury was, I didn't know what post-traumatic stress was. You know, all I know is that if you go and talk to somebody about mental health, you're messed up. You know, and I just, again, I didn't want that label, I was afraid of it. It wasn't until, um, you know, I was, you know, really starting to see the struggle at my home, the family at this point, you know, impacting my daughter and everything, and I was like, all right, fine, I'll go talk to somebody.
Speaker 2:And that's whenever I had a really great therapist, um, to start off with. And you know, she refused to even like, you know, tell me what my label is. She was just working on the trauma, you know, just working on, you know, the things that I was complaining on, going on the symptoms and you know, like she knew what my you know my diagnosis was, but I didn't know about it for the first like year, year and a half, of me getting treatment, because, you know, it's just not something that we talked about, because that made it important for me. It's like I don't want to have a label associated with my name, knowing in my medical record, you know.
Speaker 1:I was labeled at that point.
Speaker 2:But to me that was down, you know, ssris, ssnis, benzos and all that. Or was it more therapy? Or did she prescribe anything out of the box medication? You know, I didn't want anything to do with medication. I wanted to keep my you know like my hormone levels the same. I didn't want to have any issues with you know like cause.
Speaker 2:I know a lot of people were sitting there talking about how tired they felt or, you know, feeling like they were hung over, and I didn't want any of that. So we actually started off with EMDR and I wasn't a fan. I told her. I was like I don't, I don't like EMDR, I don't like anything about this. It wasn't working for me. Um, so then we just kind of switched over just to talk therapy, you know, and then it, I mean it was nice, but I just felt like I was always complaining. I always sit there and use everyday life, you know, like my work, my job, you know, my boss, my husband, my kids, you know. And we just weren't going anywhere. And she was like you need evidence days, you know, maybe evidence-based, you know, maybe not EMDR. So she actually did a cognitive processing therapy with me to start, and so the CPT. I'm a big fan of cause I and and very black and white whenever it comes to getting you know, getting treated. Either it works or it doesn't work. And you know having like that.
Speaker 2:I used to watch a lot of lawyer shows growing up too, and so that's how she compared CPT with me. She was like you're basically a lawyer and you're trying to combat your um, your symptoms, you know, and why you feel the way that you feel and why that's not your fault. Um, and I really liked that. You know I was like okay. So I mean I was just sitting there always putting a case in my head and a lot of the times my husband would look at me and he's like what are know whatever? You know whatever was going on.
Speaker 2:And then you know after, you know I would say after about a year or so you know she had actually brought up, you know like some of the symptoms that I've been seeing, you know like having she was like you know there might be more, you know going on here, and I had never even brought up that I had had multiple head impacts, you know, and you know I'd never, you know it was never mentioned any of it and she was like, have you ever been, you know, diagnosed with a or not that, but assessed for a TBI?
Speaker 2:And I was like I don't know what that means, you know. So we started doing the assessments and, you know, realized pretty quickly that, you know, I just based on my symptoms that you know I had a TBI going on. So then, you know, it kind of shifted over to more of like speech language. For, you know, like my memory you're called my memory was garbage back then, still is, but not nearly as bad as it as it was and and it was, you know, thankfully, you know, because of her, I was able to really get, you know, get an understanding of what was going on and why it was impacting my family so much.
Speaker 1:That's, yeah, I mean, and that's something that you know, as at least she was trying to explore. You know some of those different, you know therapies and and, and give you a path ahead, Because you know, you know the usual option is here's a bag of drugs, you know, and, and you know here's some therapy, and we know that doesn't work. And obviously let's, let's, let's change. Shift now to what you're doing now. I mean, you're working with veterans.
Speaker 1:You're, um, you're working with their brains, which is amazing because this is the most unaddressed issue when it comes to mental health, because we're, we're not aware that the brain health, the brain, you know, you know the, the, the, the physical brain health. Also, you know it can impact mental, mental health, right, Impact mental illness, and we don't address the brain as an organ. So tell us about, um, the Haley Institute that you're working at right now. And how did you get there? Like, you just apply for a job and get it? I mean, you have a MBA, right, You're not actually in the social welfare space, so how did you get over there?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my husband and I, we were actually up in Illinois and you know, he, he actually ended up and he's good now, but he had testicular cancer and so the you know like just the weather from, uh, you know, going through chemo and everything really was impacting, just like how his body regulation was. And so we're like you know what we like Florida, let's just move to Florida. And so, um, I I gave my uh, now old boss, uh, like basically a four month notice and I'm like, hey, I'm leaving in May. I was like I'll say, you know I'll stay for this, but you know I'll be gone. We're moving to Florida.
Speaker 2:Hottest time of the year really to start moving to Florida there was really, but anyways, it was great, great, you know, great opportunity for us. And so, um, I only applied for two jobs actually, one was when to warrior project, um, and then the other, I mean, I just kind of put in veterans, um, you know, in the Jacksonville area. So I'm in Jacksonville, florida, and um, the TBI center, you know, you know, came up. And so, um, I started reading a little bit about it.
Speaker 2:It's a new, it was a newer program, but it was under the Avalon Action Alliance, which has been around for years now, and it's a collaborative of hospitals that um assess and treat military veterans of any era, of any discharge status, um, regardless of they can pay or not. So, very similar to the work that I was doing. Um, and they needed a development officer, and so I hadn't really done too much work in the, in the fundraising, um, you know, at the time, and so I, I put my hat in for the ring and I was like, you know, I, I've done some fundraising, but not much. Most of my stuff is community outreach on the national level. And so, um, they, uh, you know they interviewed me and, um, you know, I hadn't heard from them, you know, for for a few weeks and I'm like, ah, you know, I, I I don't think I got the job and you know, I'd already, you know, said no to Wounded Warrior Project, so I was like we're just going to start our own business. So when we moved here, um, you know, I, we, I get a call from my now boss offering me a position. So everything kind of, you know, aligned really well.
Speaker 2:But you know, my role, my function, is to fundraise and, you know, spread awareness for veterans and first responders that are, you know, not really sure what's going on, you know, with their brains, but they have symptoms that you know, some of the same symptoms that I you know that I was always sitting there talking about and you know that I was always sitting there talking about. And you know what we do is we take an integrative care, you know, approach to our veterans. So if somebody comes up to me and says, hey, you know I heard you talk and you know I have some of those symptoms that you were mentioning but I don't know how to get, you know, get started, I help them get started into the program and it and it just basically goes off of you know what, what their needs are, what their symptoms are. Does the three? You know we start off with a three-day assessment and what's really unique about it is, you know the patient is centered. You know, first and foremost, they come in and they talk to our core providers. You know our speech, language, pathology, our psychiatrists, our neurologists I mean all these doctors are in one room together, which is not a common occurrence in any medical practice and the patient tells their story. One time they say you know, either I've had multiple head traumas or maybe I've had one instance, but these are my symptoms and then over the next couple of days they're getting follow-on appointments to get a good understanding of what's going on and then from there we make recommendations on you know, one, what their injury is and two, you know how best to treat it.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we need to have them go back into the community for more tests. Other times, you know, we get them linked right up to our intensive outpatient program. So on top of those core, you know providers that you know they meet with we also take an integrative therapy approach. So we include acupuncture for pain, mindfulness, art therapy, music therapy. We have canine and equine programming, walking equine program, no writing, but you know, at the same time, you know they're taking more of that. You know regular approach that you see in a lot of, you know, either inpatient or intensive outpatient programs. You know in regards to behavioral health and neurological you know help. So there's a lot that's happening during, you know, during that three-week timeframe and what we're realizing is that the evidence is showing a reduction, and a drastic reduction, in TBI symptoms. So we know the program is working and I have the honor of being able to, you know, fundraise to make sure that our program is going to continue for years to come.
Speaker 1:Now are you, beyond the therapies that are doing, what are you doing to address brain health? Are you doing HBOT? You're doing TMS, you know photobiomodulation, any of the electronic therapies out there? Oh sorry go ahead. Yeah, no, no, keep going. And I got to follow up.
Speaker 2:So you know, all of our, all our stuff is we have a very like, we're very physical therapy focused and so some of the machines that we're using is our appropriate on our bird tech. Our bird tech machine is actually virtual reality and there's platelets that you know that the individual is standing on, and so they actually partner really well with speech, language pathology, on memory retention as well. So you might be driving a car standing on this, platelets in your harness stand, of course, and so while the PT, you know, and it's a physical therapy neurologist, so it's our neurological physical therapist that's working with us. So specifically for the brain, and what they're doing is they're running you through simulations and then they might be saying, okay, what color was that light that you just, you know, walked, or that you just drove by, you know. So it links in that speech, language pathology as well, and we're able to, you know, basically, look, check their vestibular system, you know, and treat their vestibular, you know. So for those that you know pass out easy, and actually quite a few of the individuals that come through our program, you know, don't complain of, you know, vertigo they're not really complaining of, you know, passing out because they, you know we're, we're accustomed, you know, just as humans you know, to sit there and not put ourselves in situations where you know it's going to aggravate those symptoms. Same thing like you roll your ankle, what are you going to do? You're going to have crutches. You know you're going to sit there and you know, basically, put your feet off the, you know, off the floor on that.
Speaker 2:In that sense, people do the same thing for the vestibular system and so we purposely put them in a system to be able to, um, I don't want to use the word aggravate, but you know physical therapy, um, you know a lot of people with head injuries.
Speaker 2:You know they, they automatically tense up and so if you're constantly in that tense or that what we call our hyper aroused state, um, it's going to be causing a lot of other pain, um, pain issues, you know, basically from your jawline going all the way down to your toes, and so, um, the proprio is able and along with our physical, just our entire physical therapy team uses that in order to be able to, you know, treat your, you know basically relearning how to walk again, how to move, how to stand, how to sit in a correct fashion, so you're not aggravating where it's going all the way up to the pain receptors in your brain. So there's a lot that's happening, you know, in our clinic. But whenever it comes to some of the other treatment, you know modalities that are out there. We're really focused on those two aspects as of right now. But research is amazing and we do have a research team that's looking at other modalities as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, and do you partner with other clinics, like if these veterans you know want to, because you know the issue we have with the brain is we really don't know how to treat the brain. All we can do is just take, as you know, give it as much of a challenge as we can give it and try to help it heal. So do you work with or partner with other service providers that you can refer you know veterans to? If they, you know if they want to try these other modalities to continue to improve their health, because once they leave your care, if they're not local, then basically their access to that care when they go back is over, right?
Speaker 2:Correct. Yeah, so we do have a case management team and an alumni program as well. So the alumni program, you know we are, we offer that, you know, in a hybrid model. So for those that are local, they can come in person, we share a meal, we go over some more, you know, treatment modalities, check-ins, those types of things. But then, you know, for those that are, you know, maybe out of state or too far of a drive, you know we offer that virtually as well, so they can continue to have access to our clinic, really for the life of the program.
Speaker 2:Now, in regards to, you know, follow on care, because we are, you know, obviously an intensive outpatient program, you know we're focused on that three week model and then sending them back into the community we have a phenomenal case management team that tailors their needs based on whatever it is that's going on in their life. And so the clinical team comes together and, you know, in their discharge plan which I know some of those can be pretty daunting, they actually make it really easy to read and just a couple of papers and everybody is sent home, you know, with that, but in their case management folder and they meet multiple times throughout the IOP and then also during the three-day evaluation as well. But during that timeframe we're figuring out exactly what their needs are. It can be anything from like financial to recreational, to maybe continuation of care through a clinical, and so we, we do a lot of assessing and then, you know, giving all that information over to the veteran.
Speaker 2:Now it's up to them to be able to reach out to them. But we have quite a few collaborative part. Our own city's partners are going to be careful of that. University of Florida might be upset, but we do collaborate with so many different organizations in order to be able to have that. You know that continuation of care, Because you know what's great about these programs is that they're able to really get you to a point where we're improving their life. But if they don't keep up with that just like going to the gym if you don't keep working on those muscles, you're going to go right back to where you were before. And so we you know that that case management team really is pivotal in in our program.
Speaker 1:Okay. So if they, if they do get, you know, if they do good at equine therapy, they have to go buy a horse when they go back to the country.
Speaker 2:I mean they have the space. Absolutely no, we go find a horse right.
Speaker 1:No, and that's the point that we're trying to make is we do not have a scalable approach to brain health right now. Like it's all you know, it's all specialist and specialized training. That is not something that you can find in the. You know outside, you know in rural country or even in larger cities, there's these you know small networks of clinics. And why is you know brain specialized healthcare when we have such an enormous TBI issue, like we have 2.8 million TBIs in America? Right, we've got, you know, we've got over 160,000 dead veterans.
Speaker 1:Okay, none of them that, in our opinion, have been assessed for their brain health and the impact on their careers. We still have to address that issue. And yet we find that our suicide rates are not dropping, because we personally feel in some cases is that we're not looking at brain health, we're not associating brain health with mental illness and mental illness with suicide. We're doing the mental illness with suicide thing, but we're treating mental illness in outpatient with therapy and drugs and a lot of these people aren't finding you. I mean, what's your throughput a month? How many veterans are?
Speaker 2:you seeing a month new veterans? Um, so we have the capacity for, uh, you know about a hundred, 110, maybe at our clinic for the IOP, um, you know cause we, we have our, you know our three-day assessment. That's, I mean, that's constant, you know. I mean there's a I think there's only a handful of weeks in the entire year, like around Christmas and Thanksgiving and such that we're not seeing anybody in clinic and that's our admin, you know our admin time. But we have a pretty steady, you know, sense of veterans or veterans and first responders coming through our program, and so I think and I'll have to sit there and check on the numbers, but I want to say it's like close to 250 or 300 that we have through our doors for our three-day evaluation.
Speaker 2:And then that IOP, it's very specialized and we keep them in smaller cohorts, you know. So they have a way to be. And I say smaller, about 10 veterans per cohort can come through and get treated, you know, and it's three weeks, it's one, you know, once a month. Um, that that we're seeing, you know, seeing these individuals, and so, um, you know, for for us, and I and I get it a lot, you know, like, what's great about, you know, working under the Avalon Action Alliance is that we're one of seven clinics in the nation and we're growing. Um, so Bernie Marcus and Arthur Blank they're the founders of Home Depot, they're the ones that really kind of brought us all together and their vision, well, and Bernie Marcus, their vision was to have a clinic in every state and that's what we're working on is we're working on having a TBI clinic specialized with veterans and first responders, meaning our providers are specially trained, you know, to understand.
Speaker 2:You know some of the challenges that are, you know that community faces, you know, and so you know, so we're able to really target specifically that audience.
Speaker 2:And as for how people are hearing about us a lot of it's word of mouth, but our community engagement going to events. The problem is, is a lot of veterans that are really needing our services. They self-isolate, they're staying at home or maybe they're working full-time. They have families, so they work, they go home, they cook dinner, they go to bed and they do it all over again, and then weekends they're going to little Johnny or Susie soccer practice or you know whatnot. So I mean it's really hard to get in front of some of these individual that could really benefit from our service, and so, you know, doing podcasts and online marketing has really been helpful in getting people to us, and if our wait times get, you know, pretty long, I mean we have a network that we could sit there and refer to. So you know we partnered with, you know right now, like I said, six other TBI clinics and if our numbers get low, we'll refer over to them. So there's not going to be a long wait list for our community.
Speaker 1:No, and that's the point is that there shouldn't be a wait list, right, and it's not your job to to to address the entire veteran population, these, you know, brain health is not part of any. It's starting to be, but if you look at all the veterans that have left the service in the last 20 years of war and before that, you know, when I left, nobody talked about brain health, right, nobody talked about, hey, have you had TBIs, man, I had been shot in the face. That's why I'm so ugly. You know I've been. You know I've been blown. I've been around so many explosions. I've woken up, you know, unconscious, on so many rugby fields as a military rugby player, unconscious on so many rugby fields as a military rugby player, right, it's like, yeah, I've had some.
Speaker 1:I didn't even know what a TBI was, right, and so I'm like, all right, how do we, you know, and how do we scale this? And this is, you know, number one. I'd love to know more about the Avalon Alliance and your founders there, because we have a concept for a larger program, right, a program, a record, that needs a lot of attention right now. But the number one gap that we're trying to fill is number one is awareness, right, do I have a problem? And then awareness and education in the military side, because the specific treatments that you provide should not be unique just to your organization, right, this should be part of any hospital. That, because TBI is TBI and with the VA we shouldn't just have just TBI centers, we should have the VA should be aware of this.
Speaker 1:Like I go to my clinic here in Bradenton, florida, tbi right, I mean, they know of it but they have no idea. They don't say I go in there. It's like man, you know, how's your libido, how's your health, what's your cholesterol? Maybe you're going to ask about brain health. My doctor looks at me. Why would I ask you about brain health? Like, well, I've been in four different combat zones. I mean just kind of wondering. But you know to your point you shouldn't have to skip.
Speaker 1:Let me throw another question in there. So psychedelics, okay, psychedelics is a very, very big part of the fringe of, or the frontier, I think, of healthcare. We are seeing, especially people in very, very acute stages of suicidal ideation or very, very pronounced mental illness in forms of very, very deep, deep depression, that we're seeing significant improvements with the use of psychedelics. How do you as obviously something that you do not. You know it's not one of the modalities you leverage. Do you refer out, or you know, how does the you personally, how do you feel about it? Or how does the you know, how do we get? I mean, is there any interaction on the psychedelics from your organization? Do you refer out the clinics, or you know where veterans are beyond the needs right now? They're like they're just at the end of the road.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so, man, I wish our medical director was still here. So he was actually a Dixon psychiatrist, you know, and you know years and years in the military as a pilot and then he ended up becoming a psychiatrist for the army and so you know he's able to to really sit there and hone in on this conversation Officially. You know, our, our clinic obviously doesn't, you know, do anything with psychedelics. Now we do have quite a few veterans coming through our programming and they sit there and they talk about, you know, how psychedelics has impacted them there. You know we obviously encourage that conversation. Now, you know, from from that stance, I really can't talk, you know. Talk about it from, you know but from my personal, you know, stance.
Speaker 2:I mean I did the staley ganglion block and that changed my life. You know, like I, I thought, you know, I was just kind of going through like downward spiral and being able to pair that with an evidence based treatment, I mean complete game changer, you know. I mean I went from you know having, you know, flashbacks and nightmares and you know all sorts of different things you know really impacting my quality of life, to not having nearly any. I mean I can't. I mean especially immediately following, you know, my, my injection. I mean I. I mean I mean especially immediately following, you know, my, my injection. I mean I. I mean I was a completely different person. So I mean I, I can't sit there and say enough about it, and I know that, dr Lippo about Chicago he's done a lot of work.
Speaker 1:He did mine too. Yeah right, yeah, he's fantastic.
Speaker 2:I absolutely adore him you know, but like for for them, like he, he and Shauna Springer out in California I mean, she's a big advocate for it and so, um, I, I know for me personally and quite a few veterans you know we can sit there and have those conversations. You know, offhand I'd like, hey, it saved my life. Officially, university of Florida is probably going to sit there and you know I'd be like what the heck Ashton should be something that you know a lot of providers should be looking at. I know Rush University Medical Center in Chicago they've done some trials with SGB and what is it pairing it with? Like one week of CPT and you know they saw some really, really promising results. So it's becoming more prevalent in the medical community. I think there was such again, there's that word stigma. You know there is that stigma. Yeah, there was such again, there's that word stigma.
Speaker 2:You know, there is that stigma, yeah. So I think, if used correctly and under the guidance of a doctor, I think it can revolutionize, you know, revolutionize the, you know, the brain health, you know, and the TBI world. Same thing with post-traumatic stress as well.
Speaker 1:That's where I think SGBs come in For our audience. The stately ganglion blocks is an outpatient procedure where they basically lidocaine the ganglion nerve centers on both sides of your neck one side or both sides depending on the perceived level of trauma. This is not a psychedelic treatment sometimes done in conjunction with ketamine or other psychedelic treatments but basically it allows a veteran that's been exposed and first responders to a lot of fight or flight Like you're turned on. We see this with our NFL players where you're hypervigilant, you're turned on all the time. Your fight or flight mechanism has never been shut. So we're seeing people like Ashton and myself that have decades of being turned on finally being able to relax because this procedure shuts that fight or flight mechanism down. It's been used successfully with a lot of first responders, a lot of special operations people. So we do see that's one of those operations that's coming into the mainstream along with, you know, the utilization of psychedelics that you know when we have, you know, people that are not responding to CBT or equine therapy or other, we have to. That's what we're looking at opening up the band. Open up our you know our blinders here, because you know for you, for your organization, Ashton, to partner with other organizations. That's part of opening these blinders. What do you have? Because in the end we have a veteran that's hurting and if I can't help them with what I got, what can you do for them? And it's not like it's not insulated, right, we are a community and for you to be able to refer out and work with other providers and have that open approach to mental health is so powerful and very, very compelling. So, you know, tell us a little bit more.
Speaker 1:How do people find you? Let's dive into the Avalon here as we close out. How do people get a hold of you? Let's talk about this. So, first, you know what are the symptoms, right?
Speaker 1:So say I'm a wife, right? Or a husband of a spouse who's been in the military, like I got married after I left the army after 20 years, right, how do I know if my loved one is struck? Say they've been in the military. I've talked to so many wives. You know that.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know my husband was a master breacher. He got blown up. I talked, you know, and like he's they drag him over. It's like you need to talk to him, right, because once you start explaining what these symptoms are, they might think it's them. Hey, I'm ugly, or you don't like me no more, or you know, or you're an alcoholic, and no, it's up here, man. So talk to educate our audience on you know, you know on on TBI related symptoms, so they can understand that sometimes it's not their childhood, it's not you know the fact that they saw bodies, or it could be that they saw dead bodies, you know. But these are some of the symptoms that you should be watching out for. And then how do they find you so they can get evaluated, diagnosed and treated.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Now I will say for the spouses or the significant others or those that are not the veteran, All right, If any of these kind of come up, don't be sitting there immediately going over to your veteran being like. I heard Ashton and Bruce sitting there talking. That's not what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:This is just the education All right, yeah, and then you know for those that have had injuries, like, hey, if some of these are, you know, on your you know like, you know kind of things that you're you know getting plagued with, like, know that there's treatment for you. You do not have to live like this. For the longest time I thought that this was normal about being in the military, like, oh yeah, my body's going to just mess up and I'm going to have to live with it. No, you don't. So, with that being said, probably the biggest one that I get is sleep disturbance. That is, hands down, everybody's always talking about.
Speaker 2:You know, I have really poor sleep, that noise sensitivity as well, especially those with young kids, you know, and they have the TV up a little loud or maybe like that, just high pitch noise and all of a sudden you got that tinnitus going on. You know that noise sensitivity is really a big thing that we hear. But then you go into, like, the anxiety. You know the depression, you know, maybe, some forgetfulness, you know headaches. Headaches are very, very common. Um, and then you can look at, like, coordination difficulties If you're having difficulty balancing, um, that nausea, light sensitivity I should have probably said that one as well. Light sensitivity is is huge, um, you know, if you happen to constantly have the lights dimmed in the office uh, you know, that's a, that's a big one and then, slow thinking, if you have a hard time being able to remember that, where it's like crap, what, what am I looking? You know what am I sitting there trying to remember? These are all things that are that are treatable, you know, and and you don't have to sit there and, you know, just constantly live like this. So if any of those are yours and that's not an exhaustive lift those are just the most common ones that we see in our clinic.
Speaker 2:But if this is something that you're, you know, kind of getting plagued with, you know I would reach out to the Avalon Action Alliance. So you can just Google A-V-A-L-O-N Action Alliance and it'll bring you to, you know, our homepage and, like I said, I'm one of seven TBI clinics and I know that, bruce, you have very far reaching uh community. So, um, they see veterans all across the nation, puerto Rico, uh, you know, just all over and what they're doing is they're reducing, um, those barriers into care. So if you're having difficulty with, like, your insurance, um, that's not a problem. You know, airfare, lodging food, all of that is going to be covered under a grant. So all you have to do is be able to just Google, go online and say, hey, I'm having these difficulties, and then somebody from one of the clinics will give you a call.
Speaker 2:It's usually based on your geographic location and then, you know, it starts the process. It's a self-referral process, so you know. Again, that's Avalon Action Alliance. If you're specifically wanting to come see me in my clinic, you can just give us a call and that number is 904-244-3289. Again, that's 904-244-3289. You know, and this is just like I said, it's so easy to be able to get help and for and for me, speaking from somebody that has experienced that you know came very close to you know, basically losing their family over just these issues that are infeasible treatable right I'm not going to say you're going to get cured, but can you get treated so you can have a better quality of life?
Speaker 2:I mean, why wouldn't you? What's you know?
Speaker 1:and can you get diagnosed. We understand that these issues are not you going crazy. They're the result of your military service or it could be result those dang horses cause, like they're the third leading causing incursions in America. A lot of people don't know that, right. I mean, more people go to the hospitals because these darn horses than anything. But you know we don't ride them in the army anymore, right, but you know we don't ride them in the army anymore, right, but you know. But that's the whole point is that a lot of our veterans are suffering in silence and therefore their families are suffering in silence because of how we impact our families.
Speaker 1:And in the end, you've done nothing wrong. You've volunteered to serve your country, you trained for combat, you went in combat. We owe you, okay, we owe you help, we owe you coverage, we owe you treatment and and and and disability in some cases as well. Because you know, we're now understanding the impact of these long-term exposures to blast, exposure to combat, and then the trauma that goes with being turned on for decades on end. And then you come out here in the real world everybody's like, well, how come you're not normal, how come you don't act like a, you know a regular civilian. It's like well, dude, you know, and you're supposed to, otherwise you're going to go to jail.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like I'm not normal man, but no, I really no-transcript.
Speaker 1:But no, we love our Marines and nobody's prouder of their service than the Marine Corps, that's for sure. So I wish you a Merry Christmas, happy holiday season and, for everybody left before we go, don't forget Youth Contact, sports and Broken Brains free book on the website. Go get it, Read it 88 pages. You'll be more informed than any doctor, psychiatrist in this country on the issue of repetitive impacts. And we're coming out with a guide for veterans for repetitive blast exposure, which is we're starting to drive a lot of awareness to that issue. And it's because of people like Ashton we're able to get there. Ashton, thanks again for your time on the podcast. Folks, thank you so much for another wonderful episode of Broken Brains. Can't wait to see you soon. Take care, thank you.