Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman is presented by The Mac Parkman Foundation
The mission of this show and the foundation is To serve as a source of information, resources, and communications to the community of parents, coaches/Athletic trainers, medical staff, and athletes that are affected by sports-related concussions and to raise awareness of the long-term implications of concussive and sub-concussive trauma to our children.
Broken Brains will also explore how Concussive Trauma impacts our Service Members and Veterans.
Join us every week as Bruce interviews leaders and experts in various Medical fields, as well as survivors of Concussive trauma.
Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman
#6 Dr. Mark Gordon: Unveiling the truth about Brain Trauma and Hormone Therapy
Can you imagine reversing multiple sclerosis (MS) with a specialized protocol?
Join us as we spotlight Dr. Mark Gordon, a leading expert in subconcussive trauma, who reveals the biochemical mechanisms behind brain injuries and the frequent misdiagnoses by the VA and DOD. Discover how hormone replacement therapy is offering new hope for veterans and athletes suffering from the invisible wounds of war and sports-related injuries. Learn about Dr. Gordon's transformative work in advocating for better care and accurate diagnoses, highlighting the complex relationship between mechanical traumas and psychological disorders.
Explore the impact of inflammation on mental health and the emerging role of psychedelics in treating neuroinflammation. We discuss the common pathways of brain damage caused by emotional distress, sports injuries, and military blasts, and how innovative treatments are addressing these issues. Hear powerful stories, including a Green Beret's remarkable recovery from hormone deficiencies, and the ongoing efforts to support those affected by trauma. This episode is packed with valuable insights and compelling narratives that promise to enlighten and inspire.
Produced by Security Halt Media
how you doing not, if they know me and you, how's it going doc?
Speaker 2:good, staying out of trouble the best I can, which is very difficult that's it I've got I'm I'm working on. One of the things I'm stressing on is one of our naval lieutenants, uh nuclear physicist um worked on the nimitz uh developed um ms boom. It's gone. Really he's been on I've got a uh august. It's gone, okay. He sent me a video testimonial that I'm putting into a science uh, it's about 10 minutes long science that explains how our therapy uh reverses, uh, multiple sclerosis, which is an inflammatory condition.
Speaker 2:It's all back to the beginning. It's all inflammation. Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:Getting rid of that puppy Anyway.
Speaker 2:so I'll send you a copy of that. I can't release it until he gives me clearance on it, oops.
Speaker 1:No, that's exciting. I've got a good friend that's actually dealing with MS right now. I'm going to send him. He's talked to Dr Amen with ms. Right now I'm gonna send him. Uh, he's. He's talked to dr amin um, but I don't know um. You know how far he's gone down that path, but I told him about your successes, so he's he's gonna be reaching out to you, amin amin doesn't have.
Speaker 2:You know, ms related technology. Okay, this guy, uh, oh, you know who knows everything about it. Now Is your buddy, michael Hartford.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we're working on some legislation together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I introduced the two of them to Tim. He's got a phone call with Tim this week so I sent him. I called him and we did a quick Zoom and I showed him the two and a half minute video that Tim had sent me. So it was impressive. We have now six people three SEALs, two regular Army and now Naval Reversed MS MS Wow. Reversed. Reversed MS MS Wow. All right, he's 90% better. No relapses for over six months. He was 90% better three months in the program.
Speaker 1:And this is taking the supplements along with some extra stuff based on his labs this is all the protocol. This is all the protocol that's based upon, yes, his laboratory results nice yeah we want to dive into that uh protocol quite a bit yeah you see the.
Speaker 2:You see the two pictures behind me.
Speaker 1:I was trying to figure out what they were, but my eyes aren't what they used.
Speaker 2:That one is martha washington, that one is george washington and this is a medal that I purchased in August honoring George Washington. Okay Now, these two pictures are from 1856, from Pennsylvania. I went to an auction what do they call it? One of those fancy auctions in someone's house, right and ended up buying these for $ bucks for the both of them. I took it to my framer to see if he can clean it up. He calls me. He says you know what you have? I said I haven't a clue. Says these were done in 1856. 1 000 sets were done. That was it. And and they're honoring Martha and George Washington. Dang dude, yeah, good for you man yeah you ought to be on that show?
Speaker 1:What's that TV show?
Speaker 2:The.
Speaker 1:Antiques. The Antiques show the Antique.
Speaker 2:Roadshow.
Speaker 1:There you go, the Antique Roadshow with Dr Mark Gordon.
Speaker 2:I'd be afraid that they'd ask. You know, they asked to buy it and they offer some. Uh, I don't even know what they're worth, and that's really not the thing it's. It's just you know what they represent yeah, what a great story man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, uh, that's the guy who wrote um who story?
Speaker 2:what is it called? Not shooter, what is it called? What was with Kyle Jerry Scher? No, kyle, I don't remember Kyle's last name.
Speaker 1:He was a sharpshooter, oh the sniper, the Navy SEAL, yeah, the Navy SEAL. Yeah, remember kyle's last name. He was a sharpshooter. And oh, the sniper, this is the navy seal. Yeah, the navy seal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah the guy who wrote the um, the screenplay, uh, was sent to me by um. The producer, which was um, uh, who is it anyway? Was sent to me to figure out what PTSD and TBI was. In the course of sharing it with him, he says I got that. I got that he ended up becoming a patient. But he wrote Sniper. And then the next movie that he wrote screenplay was George Washington. And that's, yeah, george Washington. And that's the reason why I ended up getting this medallion from the mid 1800-1800s, because I was going to give it to him as a gift once he got the movie done. But he never got the movie done. It was a bummer clint eastwood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, clint eastwood was the executive producer who told jason to come and see me. Jason was on um one of the joe rogan podcasts with me talking about the movie and tbi and all that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're shopping a producer right now, man, which we're trying to find somebody to um, do a, do a movie documentary. Yeah, yeah, all on rhi, the kids, the gap, everything we talked about at the conference, gotcha, and we talked to Ms Schur, so she's from Quiet Explosions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you talked to Jerry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, she's interested in the project. So we've got a lot to do. Raise some money and get things moving. She's got some good contacts. Yeah, you got a lot to do. You got to raise some money and get things moving.
Speaker 2:You're going to be. She's got some good contacts, yeah, also the fact that she's a two-time Emmy Award winning and then Quiet Explosions received two Academy Award nominations.
Speaker 1:They didn't get it, but yeah, no, that says a lot, man. I mean, she's touching on a project.
Speaker 2:Did you see that article in the New?
Speaker 1:York Times yesterday.
Speaker 2:Of course. I got it at 5.30 in the morning yesterday from one of our naturopaths out of San Diego who sent it to me, and I got on the line and I called David Phelps. Yeah, who's the? Yeah, david Phelps, and Michael told me that he had spoken with him in the past. So, michael Hartford, oh yeah, whenever I refer to Michael, it's your Michael Hartford.
Speaker 1:No, it ain't my Michael, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:I've emailed that author several times in the past saying look, dude, you're overlooking. Like his first article. I said you completely missed this right and this is all about repeated blast exposure and really, and please count on me as somebody and I invite him to the conference. Then his next article was really insightful. This one was on point. You know that it is all about these repeated injuries and what's kind of you know, sad is that you know SEALs saying we had no idea that this was tied together, linked together Because SEALs move fast, man, they don't have the bureaucracy of other special operations units. So hopefully there's a way to start working on this. Always got to have a producer to keep me on. It's like a sergeant major punching me in the head. Hey, all right.
Speaker 1:So to all our listeners, welcome to another episode of Broken Brains, where we reach out to the subject matter experts and the industry's thought leaders on repeated head injuries and repeated head impacts, repeated blast exposure, and try to present to you, you know, alternative thoughts and processes and treatments on what was happening with all the brains that are being damaged from contacts towards military service. And today's episode is pretty exciting. We have Dr Mark Gordon with us on there and I don't know if you most of you have probably already heard of him, but if you haven't. Dr Mark Gordon is the founder and medical director of Millennium Health Centers in Encino, california. In 2015, he released the book Traumatic Brain Injury a clinical approach to diagnosis and treatment that presents the science in his experience treating all precipitating causes of traumatic brain injury in both active, veteran, sports and civilian populations.
Speaker 1:He's also joined with the Warrior Angels Foundation, a 501c3 charitable foundation that was founded by Veterans Andrew and Adam Barr to provide services to members of the armed forces, of both active and services, and I'll let you know that Dr Gordon's organization has provided significant financial support to our suffering veterans out there and continues to do so to a large amount of money, and all of us greatly appreciate the efforts done. His services are also featured in the award-winning movie Quiet Explosions, which we just got done discussing, was nominated for two Academy Awards which focuses on healing the stress and kinetic damage that's done to brains of athletes and soldiers in order to help them recover. And for more information, we'll talk about Thorstein, tbihelpnoworg, millennial Health Centers and all the other wonderful foundations that Dr Gordon has supported and founded over the years. Gordon, welcome to the show. Thank you, breet, a pleasure seeing you again.
Speaker 2:You know they say it's best to be seen, and then obscene. That's true, that's true, so it's good to see you again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's good to see you again. It was just amazing having you at the conference, sir. I mean, you know, honestly, I had so many people call up to us. Like you know, I've never stayed till the last speaker, you know, and you were the last speaker, and so that that presentation that you gave on subcussive trauma, I mean, up until that point it sounded like it was something that you were aware of and but your protocols focused on, you know, rbi and veterans. So it seems to have given you a, a, a new approach for a lot of your protocols. But, you know, let's get. You know, get back, we can start there if you want, man.
Speaker 2:I'll have to, you know, acknowledge the fact that if it wasn't for the bad leading to a greater good that you've now generated, I knew that the veterans that I was seeing who were not given the criteria of traumatic brain injury but were given the criteria of PTSD post-traumatic stress disorder that that criteria was given to them or diagnosis was given to them because they didn't achieve the level of trauma perceived by the VA and DOD to relegate it into traumatic brain injury. It's because they weren't having concussive injury, they were having sub-concussive traumas, and the only thing that that did was to reallocate my mind from looking at traumatic brain injury which I now have removed from my literature and everything that I'm writing and put it as sub-concussive concussive because I think that's more inclusive, although you have people out there that are trying to refute the use of the term subconcussive as being dangerous.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, non-concussive, that ain't going to happen. No, you know, but they want to control the narrative.
Speaker 2:That's again they want to control the narrative. Subcon, again they want to control the narrative. Subconcussive is subconcussive.
Speaker 1:Absolutely that's it.
Speaker 2:It's a category of its own and I believe that over time that subconcussive sort of like transforms into the equivalence of concussive, because, you know, with the subconcussive, as you well know, you don't have any immediate symptoms, but it doesn't mean that the mechanisms, the biochemical mechanisms, haven't been started. And in the article I talked about, which was mechanotransduction, where you can have shaken baby, you can have minor explosions, you can have, uh, riding a sea do or doing roller skating or ice skating or, um, what is it? Snow skiing or water skiing and that repetitive injury. Or the guys with swick, the boat operators for the, for the navy seals, these guys are getting that wave pounding and they're developing all the symptomatology as someone who has blast trauma who?
Speaker 2:blasted my work with SWCC, you know, and listening to their what they do, it makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they drive those boats so hard. They got those harnesses on them, I know, you know, since you know this is kind of a problem, that once you understand the scale, you can't unsee it Right. Yes, and um, you know this is kind of a problem, that once you understand the scale you can't unsee it right. Yes, and you know, it was just I didn't even think about tankers and you know artillery people were, you know, kind of there. Then I started thinking about all these other military service related you know, occupations, like you just said, where you have a lot of jarring of the brain of something that's. You know, I'm a US Card certified boat captain. I take my boat out all the time, but I don't take it out in a four-foot seas and beat the hell out of it at 40 miles an hour. So I can't even imagine what that would feel like.
Speaker 2:Wait for the next hurricane in Florida.
Speaker 1:Ah, no, no, that boat's on a trailer. As soon as that thing gets to within 500 miles, this place, man, I had this big plan to drive it to the bahamas or something, just to get out away from here. But you know, you know all the fuel and costs, like, yeah, I'm not there yet, but yeah, no, that's uh, yeah, I mean it's, it's just crazy. What you know the other.
Speaker 1:There's so many ways for you to experience that subcursive impact and I think what we're trying to get out there and get aware it's much like those Navy SEALs that were in a New York Times article yesterday we talked about. They all experienced massive amounts of psychological and behavioral disorders. Yet nobody was assuming they're assuming, they're crazy that you saw too many bodies or you've been in combat too long, but nobody was looking at what they do for a job, and I mean the educational gap that we have to fill right now. And then that just leads to the treatment gap which you know you right now are just, you're into it up to your neck. I mean, you've been doing this for so long. How did you? I mean, is your background a doctor, doctor like a family doctor? How did you get into, you know, just figuring. I know you talked about translational medicine when you're at the conference, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my original training was family practice out of Chicago and I had the curiosity in endocrinology and was sort of like brought under the wing of our head of endocrinology in Dr Cruz in Chicago and I didn't realize until I had grad, 10 years after I had graduated from residency in 1985. And 1995 is when I started just naturally going into this area of endocrinology, which was being used for anti-aging medicine, and in about 97, I had developed depression Just out of the sky. Blue developed depression was put on antidepressants, lou developed depression was put on antidepressants. And my escape has always been reading. So I started reading about this area and there were a couple of articles that brought me to the thought that, okay, hormonal deficiency changes the chemistry in the brain and leads to personality changes.
Speaker 2:So I went and had my blood work done and I was deficient in growth hormone testosterone. So I went and had my blood work done and I was deficient in growth hormone testosterone and thyroid. And I had had six subconcussive traumas in my past. Maybe one of them I was knocked unconscious when a car hit me while I was riding a bicycle when I was 13. You know that might have had something to do with it, but it made me go to an organization in Las Vegas that specialized in hormone replenishment and got my hormones replaced, and within 90 days I was just totally different and I started focusing back in the late nineties on this area.
Speaker 2:I went back to my patient population and started talking to them about those that were put on hormone replacement based on labs. If they'd had traumas in the past, then almost every single one had a trauma, so they had a trauma that possibly accounted for their hormone deficiency. But when you replenish their hormones, their psychiatric, psychological problems diminished, mitigated, they improved. So that's when I started focusing almost exclusively in 2004 on neuroendocrinology, which is everything about the brain and the chemistry and the hormones of the brain that regulate our personality and functionality. So that's how I ended up into this square.
Speaker 1:I just think, I just want to focus on something you just said. You went back and looked at your patients. What do you think would happen right now if we went back and looked at the suicides that have taken place, that we look back at everybody that's been diagnosed with PTSD in the military, of which there's, I mean there, there, at least 400,000, the TBI events have happened, right, yes, massive amounts of PTSD. Uh, you know diagnoses that are going on. What do you? I mean? I mean obviously, I mean we, we've got to go back. We have this new knowledge now. I mean we have to go back and we have to make right's wrong I mean wrong's right and not, you know, blaming anybody or you know calling for, you know, heads on the block.
Speaker 1:But I think that was your point. You went back and looked at your patient population, identify those that were suffering to get them help. You know, what do you think the military could do now? Or even the civilian population? I mean the amount of, I think, the trauma that exists right now in this world from contact sports severely, you know, I mean both. You know we have two large populations, one significantly larger, but you know how do we get that started? How do we get these doctors and psychologists to start looking at this differently, as something that could be treatable, not just druggable or whatever you want to?
Speaker 2:call it. Well, you know I love my psychiatrist that I work with. We've got 23 or 24 that we've trained. We've got you met Dr Demaya in Florida who's been with us for three years. Her entire outcomes for her psychiatric cases have gone vertical, have gone incredible, since she started looking at the hormones, the neurohormones of the body. You know we trained her three years ago. She's doing absolutely great for her patient population. So it means we have to change the paradigm.
Speaker 2:When you have, you know, a psychiatric presentation, you just don't hand them pills, you do the appropriate laboratory testing. In the presentation I gave you at the summit I talked about the Max Planck Institute in Germany, which is a major research and development center for neuropsychiatric conditions. They made a very clear point One yes, you have to do the psychometric testing to find out what's wrong. And two, you have to check their hormones, their neurosteroids. Because the relationship is so clear that what allows us to be depression-free, suicide-free, cognitively clear, physically functioning, is the chemistry of the brain that regulates the whole body. I use the CPU, the computer, you know the central processing unit as our brain and if the brain doesn't have a perfect CPU, you start losing peripheral factors, whether or not that psychiatric or cognitive or physical function or ability to play guitar or to learn a new language, whatever it is, are all negatively influenced by the deficiencies. So how to get the? You know the right people and you know psychiatrists only want to treat people as psychiatric conditions. They don't know that what influences and gives them their depressive appearance or their mood disorders is due to the change in the chemistry.
Speaker 2:I'll keep on referring to the summit where I presented the papers that have clear, when there's inflammation in the brain due to a subconcussive or concussive injury, that it alters the chemistry to allow for antidepressive serotonin to be made, to reduce melatonin so you can't sleep and to increase a product called kynurenic acid, which is what they believe really causes depression. So we need a total paradigm shift. We need neuroendocrine endocrinologists to be the front runners in assessing these people and endocrinologists to be the front runners in assessing these people to figure, to see the biochemical. I mean in March of last year March is the TBI month I was invited by the Department of Health and Human Services to give a presentation and the presentation was between TBI and PTSD, was between TBI and PTSD.
Speaker 2:What I did was I sent out a request from our military population. They had 72 hours to sign in to a study and we had 79 sign in. And what did I do? I looked at their histories. A small percentage, 19 of them, had VA T tbi diagnosis and the rest of them had a ptsd diagnosis. But if you go and ask them, have you ever had any subconcussive or concussive traumas prior to your uh enlistment in the military? They all said yes. It was. Mma and football were the two most common.
Speaker 2:So here, they had a predisposing condition, which was traumatic brain injury, and they then, with their active military, their basic training, their entering the theater of war, Basic training, they're entering the theater of war, their exposure to repetitive gunfire and so forth, that pushed them further into the inflammatory level. They exceeded the threshold that their body could handle and they went symptomatic.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, this is what needs to be looked at and there's no doubt because you don't get assessed for this is that they were probably in a pretty high state of neuroinflammation from all that exposure before they even joined the military, which just made it worse. You know, I like when you talk, you know I think Dr Gordon got to a lot of us there is that it's logical. You know the brain, you know every computer has got a motherboard can't have, you know, cpus, motherboard whatever Right, can't have CPUs, motherboard whatever right. And you got to keep that puppy humming right. And I think that the brain having that power of regulation throughout the body and all that, I mean just keeping it in that prime state which appeals to a lot of athletes and military guys, because we're all focused on staying fit right and doing the right things for our body. So the logic definitely is there, for sure. But you know how do we, how do we get those endocrinologists in front? You know how do we? You know how do we, you know you know, try to get the, and this is where I just, you know, right now we're, you know, between, you know, trying to get a movie started and now another book coming out on the military that I'm writing and this and all that.
Speaker 1:It's just the scale of this issue right now. The paradigm is so. The carnage is so large right now and we have to get people away from like, when I talk to my shrink, you lose your son, you go see a psychiatrist and she sits there and looks at me. She goes. Well, bruce, I've never heard about this, but I'll tell you what for the last 10 years, I've been sending my teenage football players out to keep playing football because it meant so much to them, and now I know that this is what probably put them here. She goes. I'm appalled, and so we have to convince an entire number one subcustive trauma is not even trained in medical institutions Athletic trainers, nurses, this is, I mean getting endocrinologists, and part of this is part of this huge problem that we have that nobody, the awareness level is at zero right now for this issue and the relation with mental illness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's the reason why we need to establish a fresh cadre of healthcare providers who aren't jilted by the or biased by the traditional training that was devoid of subconcussive understanding, you know, of subconcussive trauma, and that is awareness. This is about getting the awareness, the science, out there, and that's what you know. My presentation was a whole bunch of science and little vignettes to bring out the fact of how inflammation kills the hormones of the brain, how the inflammation stops, the enzyme systems that control neurotransmission, neurotransmitters, the epinephrine, norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin all those neurotransmitters that keep us level and how it influences it. It's like you're driving your car from Tampa to Destin at the panhandle and you've got one gallon of gas, and how far is that going to take you? You're going to run out, and what happens with these traumas is that they run out of the chemistry that keeps them sane, that keeps them healthy, brain functioning, and they've run out of the chemistry.
Speaker 2:And what we're supposed to expect them to be? Cognitively intact, emotionally stable? No, that goes out the window. We lose that. Cognitively intact, emotionally stable no, no, that goes out the window. We lose that.
Speaker 1:I mean, we're just talking right now to several organizations who are getting kind of penalized because they deal with what we call OTH or other than honorable or bad conduct discharges. Well, there's an entire group of people that are mostly homeless, or a lot of them are homeless, right, right, that have these discharges and the military has nothing to do with them because they're a BCD or an OTH. Well, nobody's looked at what they did. A lot of these guys served in combat, right, yes? And yeah, they acted out. So, all right. So you know today's knee-jerk, shotgun society. You can only make make one mistake. You can't have a second chance at anything. So these poor men and women were tossed out of the military, can't get to the VA, can't get anything, and then organizations that work with them can't get funding because they're bad conduct discharge. Yet we've never taken a look at what you just outlined. Why were they acting out and what did they do in the military that could have attributed to their actions?
Speaker 2:Then you're going to love. Then you're going to love this story, bruce. What got me to move from 1995 to 2007 from the NFL working with NFL and football and different professional players who were getting symptoms? You know I did two ESPN outside the lines that we talked about it. What happened was I got a phone call from an emergency room doc out of Fayetteville. Now it was, I think, pine Ridge or Pinecrest near Fayetteville.
Speaker 1:Pine Springs? I think Pine Springs, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know it, pine Springs. Yeah, you know it. So her husband, jr, was a Green Beret who had been on 1820 missions and he was being looked at for less than honorable discharge. Why? Because he was insubordinate. Why was he insubordinate? No one knew. So what I did was I sent her a kit. He was the first case that we paid for back in 2007, 2008. I sent him a blood draw kit, they ran it and the results were sent to me and there was the answer. We ended up replenishing his hormones. I sent to his wife, the ER doctor, his hormones. I sent to his wife, the er doctor, and she ended up treating the husband and he gets better. He doesn't get discharged. He gets returned back to uh to brag, where he's now an instructor. He was taken off the field, you know, out of the uh the theater and brought home and he ended up lasting for another five, six years.
Speaker 2:You know probably she ended up becoming one of our first docs to be trained. Okay, no kid, true story. That's true story and that's what converted me over from the high-end financial who didn't want to help. And then I went back to the guys and said look at you, guys make lots of money. Why don't you help me with our veterans? Why don't you help us with our active military? They wouldn't have it. So that's what caused me to leave and why I shut them down in 2009.
Speaker 1:Well, I will say that insubordination of being a Green Beret I kind of go hand in hand. I mean that's why we're kind of picked. You might have had a couple of conventional commanders that couldn't handle him, but you know. But no but, but be able to dial in and find that he was, you know, dysfunctional, or or you know he needed help in certain chemical areas. I mean right, wow.
Speaker 2:So we found his deficiency of testosterone, dhea, pregnenolone and, I believe, growth hormone was also deficient. And one thing unique about those hormones that I just rattled off is they've been found to contribute to what's called treatment-resistant depression, meaning that you put someone on antidepressants one doesn't work. Put them on two, two doesn't work, so you change to another set. They're not working. Well, it turns out there have been articles coming out since 2017, if not earlier talking about specific hormones like the one I like referring to as growth hormone. They found that 61% of the people with treatment-resistant depression had growth hormone deficiency and within one to two months of replenishing the growth hormone, their depression mitigated, they reduced or was totally gone, and they ended up with four benefits they slept better, they had brighter minds, they had better interpersonal skills and they were less emotionally volatile. So, reading that, I went into the biochemistry I work at a molecular level to see how that growth hormone created the improvement, and it's because it helped to drop inflammation was one of the pathways. So it's all back to inflammation, neuroinflammation, and it's all precipitated by stress. Forget about any physical trauma. Just stress causes fractal to be reduced and inflammation occurs. And then all the traumas that we've already shared. You know, from blast wave to tankers.
Speaker 2:I have a medic who would walk behind Abrams' tank and they'd shoot off their rounds. He'd get a shutter. He retires from the military and 18 months post-separation he develops a whole bunch of psychiatric conditions and he's being put on by medication. He's in San Diego put on medication. They're not working. He sees one of the Joe Rogan programs that we did. He comes into the. He had two and a half hormone deficiencies two deficiencies and one real low and when we corrected it he got better. In fact I dragged him onto the Dr Drew show where he talked about his experience. Yeah, I was invited to Dr Drew and anyway. So inflammation, hormone deficiency these things are extremely important. And then when we look at some of the basic chemistry of our body, like vitamin D, which is a hormone, that vitamin D is directly related to the level of inflammation. So if you don't have a good level of vitamin D, you're going to have a lot of brain inflammation. That's going to affect the chemistry of the brain and lead to things like depression.
Speaker 1:If you go and look at the relationship between vitamin D and depression there's over a million articles on vitamin D, and didn't you say there was like one specific type of vitamin D you have to take, because most of the other stuff you just, you know, piss out or whatever?
Speaker 2:It's when you take your vitamin. Vitamin D, dha and pregnenolone are called fat soluble, which means that you need to have some fat in your gut to help it to be absorbed. So we give it after a meal. If you take it before a meal, you'll burn through it, the acid in the gut. You won't absorb it as well. So vitamin D3 is, you know, the one that we highly recommend. You can get it with K2, with vitamin K, which keeps the calcification down. What's the relationship? Vitamin D increases calcium absorption from the gut.
Speaker 2:So what I tell our patients is because we use high dose of vitamin D, because it's unbelievable, it's the miracle hormone, if you start reading about all the articles that have come out. So we tell them when you're taking a high dose of vitamin D, don't take any calcium supplements. Don't use Tums, because Tums are elemental calcium, and try not to chew on any dry wall. And if you adhere to that, you have no problems with excessive calcium, because the theoretical toxicity of vitamin D is really the calcium that gets absorbed. It's the calcium that causes abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, irregular heartbeat, coma and death, not vitamin D.
Speaker 1:So I got to stop chewing on wallboard now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no more calcium carbonate.
Speaker 1:God, there goes my diet.
Speaker 2:All right?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean that's. You know we live in Florida. We always assume that if you go out there and sit on the sandbar for a couple of days, you'll be good on your vitamin.
Speaker 2:D. But you know A couple hours with the arms and legs exposed. It usually works. But I've got surfers here. You know the water's cold in California, so they tend to wear a what wetsuit in the chest and hands.
Speaker 2:But their arms, you know, their arms are exposed, their upper body is exposed and then they lay down on the beach and I've got two brothers that are surfers and they've got very low vitamin D levels. And so in the literature it's talking about possibility that we're losing the ability to convert the sunlight, ultraviolet radiation, to induce cholecalciferol, which is the base product, or cholesterol. If you want to go even further into, you know the D grouping of vitamins in the liver, in the kidneys and then the liver. So you know why are we losing it? Have to understand that vitamin D appears to have been a survival mechanism. The survival mechanism is vitamin D stimulates hair growth. So really, in the millions of years ago, when we were just starting out, if we didn't have hair, the ionizing radiation from the sun would cause cancer and we die. So we developed hair to protect us from the sun. Now we're living in caves and huts and homes and whatever, and we're blocking the sun. So the body says, oh, you don't need it anymore and whatever and we're blocking the sun.
Speaker 2:So the body says, oh, you don't need it anymore. It might take another million years for us to totally eliminate vitamin D from our system.
Speaker 1:I can go back to eating a wall board and you look at things like sickle cell disease that it was.
Speaker 2:You know the body created it so that it would protect people living in Africa from malaria is what they believe. So our body mutates and develops protective systems. So you know the vitamin D was a protective system. Now we don't need it because we wear clothes and we're in, you know, huts caves called homes, but the impact is still phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Homes, but the impact is still phenomenal. You might not need it for hair loss, but internally, vitamin D.
Speaker 2:can you look at the benefits of cardiovascular? There's almost 3 million articles on vitamin D protecting the heart and over the last four years, because of COVID, people started taking vitamin D because it blocks the virus from getting into the cell and or diminishes the inflammation created by it. So cardiologists in my group cardiologists you know recognizing improvement in people with cardiovascular disease prior to you know having COVID and start taking zinc, quercetin and vitamin D.
Speaker 1:Dang so solid COVID right there, man. You know. One of the things that I wanted to ask you about is that you know we talked about a lot about, you know, traumatic brain impacts or you know, repeated head impacts. At the conference Right now, you know, based on the New York Times article, you know we're starting to finally get a lot of attention to repeated blast exposure Now. Repeated impact head impacts and blast exposure cause two different forms of damage to the brain I mean one and eventually lead to CTE, or you know, but they both create behavioral you know dysfunctions and psychological dysfunctions. Are you seeing any difference in how you apply your protocol to, say, a sports, a veteran or a soldier, or is the damage different that you have to repair or not at?
Speaker 2:all this is where we've had differences in purview and how we look at things. This is where we've had differences in purview and how we look at things. I don't fully. I believe that it's the same pathway of damage. What starts? It can be different. You have pure emotional, you can have blast wave, you can have football, you can have concussive sports, you can have MMA, you can have jujitsu, you can have rugby, you can have hockey, checking against the sideboard, which is worse than the game itself. All these things create that thing we talked about called mechanotransduction. That causes the cells to start dumping inflammation into the brain. So whatever the causation is, the pathway is the same.
Speaker 2:So if we would not intervene, I mean Dr Daniel Pearl out of health science in the military, you know has done over 20,000 brain segments or brain histopathology and he found everybody had CTE. Cte is a end stage condition from prolonged inflammation that you've done nothing to do to diminish it. Let me be very careful on this one SSRIs, antidepressant medication. A few of them have some benefit at reducing inflammation. The majority don't. Okay, there are a couple of pathways that some of the SSRIs can drop the white blood cells of the brain, called microglia, that dump the inflammation, it can modify them. Then another pathway that helps with calcium going into a cell, which a cell excitotoxicity. But you know, there's really no difference in the process. They'd like to say there is so that they can have multiple tiers of investigation.
Speaker 2:Yes, CTE is an end stage of it. Cte Daniel Merrill found CTE found the protein in there. If you look at Alzheimer's disease, alzheimer's disease has accumulation of these proteins tau proteins, beta amyloid. What causes the tau protein to occur? Trauma causes a process that they call phosphorylation, which causes the tau protein to be disrupted from its function. What is its function? It holds the tube in our neuron together, called the microtubule. A and B is held together with tau protein. If you get too much phosphate on it, it separates it and you start getting this accumulation of tau protein. And then you have beta amyloid, which is from disruption of an enzyme system, secretase's system and that causes a lot of beta amyloid to be produced which creates more inflammation. So it's a catch-22. So it's understanding this molecular, cellular levels of how these things occur gives us an opportunity to jump in and to alter the pathway, alter the course. So you know, I respect those brilliant researchers who talk about CTA, but it's the end. Why don't you talk about how to stop it? Who?
Speaker 2:talk about CTA but it's the end why?
Speaker 1:don't you talk about how to stop it at the beginning? So yeah, from a neuroinflammation perspective, you treat both the same way. You know, even though we have I mean there is we still have physiological damage that needs to be addressed, especially in terms of severe synaptic death, which is associated with schizophrenia and a lot of demyelination, which, you know, these take time and I think there are. You know, ways we're looking at it. So, yeah, here's a good question. So, with your protocols, how do new things? You know? So supplementation and diet are two ways that I mean, these aren't even covered by you know, insurance, right, and everything that you are proposing you can buy in a GNC for the most part, right? So we can't get insurance coverage for that.
Speaker 1:And then we look at psychedelics. So how would psychedelics overlap with your therapies? Or do you recommend them with the promise that maybe there could be some neuroplasticity that's regained or neuropathway rewiring in the brain? What's your position on? You know, while dealing with the neuroinflammation that's causing all the damage from the kinetic stuff you know, how does psychedelics? What's your perspective on that?
Speaker 2:I think psychedelics are one of the tools in our medical bag. Okay, it isn't the only tool in the bag. It is a tool in the bag MDMA, ibogaine, ayahuasca, psilocybin, lsd they're all tools in the bag. Now the question is who needs them? Well, if you give it to people as the first treatment, that might help them, because there are certain of these psychedelic and psychedelic-assisted therapies, psychedelics, which have major anti-inflammatory benefits okay, major anti-inflammatory, so you get some benefit from that as well as resetting the serotonin A1 and A2 receptors, some of the DMT receptors. We're still finding out what the pathways are that are being influenced by each one of these psychedelics. So I think they have, you know, a role to play. I mean 1952 or 53, when they were originally brought back from Mexico, silla Simon, that it was helpful in depression and addiction to alcohol and to cigarette smoking at the time. Now it's being applied for specific depression, schizophrenia and all these other psychedelic labeled conditions. So I think they have use. We're still developing how much and what.
Speaker 2:I wrote an article that got published last year, September, which dealt with how neural inflammation will possibly reduce the beneficial effects of psychedelic-assisted therapy. Because, think of it this way, everything is really straightforward. If a psychedelic needs a specific site on a cell to turn on its magic. If there's inflammation, it destroys those receptors. And if this hormone, this psychedelic, needs an enzyme to help it to work, like monoamino oxidase, moa and so forth, or MAO alpha and MAO beta, what happens is you can't make it, so you can't regulate the synapses. And that's the key that you said is the synapses are damaged by inflammation and if you damage the synapses, which is the communication junction between one nerve and another, which helps with the transmission of the impulse that tells our brain what to do or directs chemistry to occur, if you have loss of that synaptic junction in the chemistry because of damage by inflammation to the receptors and the production of neurotransmitters, then you lose the benefit. So my recommendation relative to psychedelics if you're going to use them to do something to drop the inflammation in the brain, so you get the maximal benefit.
Speaker 2:And in fact we've got a project in the British Virgin Islands with an organization called WAKE with a Dr, nick Murray. He's a Canadian doc who opened up a center in Jamaica originally and Richard Branson contacted him and moved him over July 1st I believe today moved him over to British Virgin Island to set up to reset up his psychedelic assisted therapy, which is for military and NFL right now. And so what Dr Murray has learned because he got trained and his head doc got trained by us is that you need to address the inflammation prior to starting a psychedelic therapy so that you can get the maximum benefit with a lower dose. There's micro dosing, then maximum benefit with a lower dose. There's micro dosing, then you know full levels of dosing of psychedelics. And I think that, oh, there was a case, I think it was colorado. A girl with paranoid schizophrenia or schizophrenia overdosed on a psychedelic, was hospitalized. When she cleared the psychedelic and woke up, her schizophrenia was gone, really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've been on a little research project right now where I've done ayahuasca, getting ready to try some psilocybin. I've been using ketamine for about a year now due to my you know, just a lot. I was having some issues a couple of years ago and I am absolutely, you know, amazed that I mean years ago, and I am absolutely, you know, amazed that I mean what it's done for me part, you know, from part's perspective is and getting back on healthy diets and that's, you know, and leveraging, you know, a lot of the uh knowledge that's out there, uh, it's, it's. It's just something that I think is important. We are working on some legislation right now where we're going to propose that programs like yours not in psychedelics, as well as you know, all these other technical modalities from photobiomodulation, hot tub therapy, hbot, you know, vagus, nerve simulation, all these other things that have shown that have had treatment. I mean you've got hundreds, if not thousands, of veterans going. This helps treatment. I mean you've got hundreds, if not thousands, of veterans going. This helps me. Well, I don't think there's a need to wait on more studies or more trials when we have veterans killing themselves every day and hundreds of thousands more suffering when they should.
Speaker 1:You know, their only crime is I joined the military, I wanted to fight for my country. They did not do anything wrong and they're suffering. I went at this ayahuasca treatment. We can talk about this on another show but I watched 12 kids that have gone. Multiple suicide attempts, snorting heroin were absolutely in the deepest holes a human being could be and they did nothing but go to war. That was their job and they did it well and they're suffering. I mean, these are special operations guys. We had two women in there and they were looking at ayahuasca and I'll tell you 12 of them left better people, they left with purpose. Even myself I was changed at a very deep level, profound level, by that experience.
Speaker 1:But you know again, all these awesome you know programs you know and capabilities, like what you bring to the fight. You know these kids are out there paying hundreds of dollars. If you want to go take Ibogaine in Mexico, it's $7,000, $8,000. I'm paying $5,000 to take a mushroom trip here in a couple weeks because I want to see what it does for me. So if I can talk, I talk from the core. But we've got to get these things covered by insurance.
Speaker 1:Have you had any success with the, you know the TRICARE or the VA, or just you know Blue Cross, blue Shield, you know? And if you haven't, what's the obstacles? How do we? Because the support that we're getting from the politicians right now is like this needs to change and we're convincing them that it has to change and this is going to change. But at the same time, you know we've got everything. We've got thousands of veterans going. Hey, this stuff helped me and I want to give them a Chinese food menu. Go, you try whatever you want until you find the right combination. But it all starts with neuroinflammation, you know. It all starts with what you're talking about, if you ask me.
Speaker 2:Well, the biomarker panel that we have, the 28-point biomarker panel, in the beginning, which is back in 2004, we would attempt to send it into the different insurance companies and a lot of times they were rejected. And the reason why they were rejected is because within our 28-point biomarker panel are some of the hormones that they believe are female-important only, not male, like the pregnenolone, progesterone, allopregnanolone, which is not true, but that's what they use as a means to negate the reimbursement for these tests. The other issue is, you know, I sat on the Medical Board of California as a consultant, as an expert for them for a while and then as a consultant for many years, and I learned that if an insurance company doesn't like you ordering labs, they'll put a complaint in with the medical board of california and the obligation of the medical board of whatever state is to go and investigate the complaint. So, yeah, so dude, no fun. So what we decided to do was to not send anything after that date, that we decided not send anything into insurance and we became cash only and what we did was started, you know, supporting our veterans. We've got over 2,000 that we help into our program, trying to get more funding so we can get it to zero. So it's no out of pocket for them to come into the program. They'll have to pay for their treatment, which you know our treatment is not lifelong. That's the beauty of it. Our treatment is until you get better, and that might take three months, six months, nine months or a year.
Speaker 2:We have a 56-year-old Army major from Fort Hood who's on eight medications, came into the program Six months later he's off all medication and he's off of our treatment protocol and in the course of that first six months he's retired from the army and gets a job working for the Department of Health and Human Services for the state of Texas, where he drags me in to give a presentation, and for the Office of Acquired Brain Injury. He has me go and give a presentation. That presentation was on the difference between TBI and PTSD and the treatment outcomes were identical. Whether or not they were given a PTSD or a TBI diagnosis, their outcomes were the same. Okay, so it taught me that it doesn't matter what label. It depends upon what you find. And what we found was the neuroinflammation associated hormone deficiencies, and when you corrected that, their symptomatology disappeared.
Speaker 2:And I posted that article on my website on the tbihelpnoworg under the science and you can go read it. It's PTSD, tbi article and it shows you the end results, how much improvement they had over a 12 month period of time. And that's what I presented to to them. And then last Thursday I was invited by the major, an organization called Samaritan Organization, which are psychologists, psychiatrists, that naturally go to help the different branches with TBI, ptsd and all that. So I educated them on your subconcussive presentation that I did for you, so they understood that they don't have to have loss of consciousness, they don't have to be knocked down, they don't have to have anything loss of consciousness.
Speaker 1:They don't have to be knocked down.
Speaker 1:They don't have to have anything but they can progress over time to have everything. It's nuts. I spoke to 150 lawyers, nonprofits and judges, all dealing with the criminal system here in Tampa and I said all right, how many of you heard of repeated head impacts? Four people raised their hands and I said do you know that not only do we have one million incarcerated veterans who have never been assessed Dr Gordon, never been assessed for any overexposure to repeated blast injuries, rhi where they might not be completely at fault for their actions, we'll just say Right, but you know we have enormous amounts of incarcerated. I've heard of studies I haven't found them yet where 80 to 90 percent of the inmates have had experience with TBI or MTBI in their life.
Speaker 2:I've seen it to you.
Speaker 1:Really. I mean, just think of the cultural change that could be happening if we were more aware of what we're doing with brains. You know we're aware of the fragility of them and stuff like that, and I know you the uh, it's amazing. But look, I know we're taking up a lot of your time here, but this is uh, I I do, you're definitely coming back on, not like this, ain't joe rogan yet, but you know you're definitely coming back yeah, well, the the um article came out and um stated over a million veterans incarcerated, 235,000 are females and that in greater than 90% of them had at least one hit, one concussive trauma, one TBI.
Speaker 2:Okay, and if you look at the causations sports related Okay, majority of them were sports related, and then they go into the military. Okay, the majority of them were sports related, and then they go into the military. You see even Andrew Marr you know, you met Andrew Marr Green Beret EOD.
Speaker 2:He was a football player from childhood, pop Warner, all the way up to college. And then he goes into the military and he has in his fourth tour of duty, he has this blast that knocks him unconscious for five seconds and six months later he's on 13 medications full-blown alcoholic and suicidal, you know, and they're calling him PTSD.
Speaker 1:No, I had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 2:They didn't look at his history, they didn't see. And what we did in all these you know, on the study that I told you about from last March was we looked at the guys who gave PTSD or were given a PTSD diagnosis 100% at prior traumas.
Speaker 1:Just think of the change we can't even calculate the loss of human capital has taken place from the lack of awareness of this issue. But just think of what could happen if every doctor, nurse, athletic trainer, psychologist was aware of the impact of these various professions and occupations on the brain and just started assessing these kids. I mean, look at my coroner. If it wasn't for the coroner that asked me that one question on CT about my son, I wouldn't probably be here, right, but he had at least 10 in the seminar. He represents less than one percent of the corners in this country. How many suicides take place that are labeled suicide? Sorry, kid's gone, or your husband's gone, and nobody's saying did your husband play contact sports? You know, because we're not aware of as a society and I think it's just uh, it's just uh, not, it's, it's appalling, I mean a car accident.
Speaker 2:We have a, a 29 year old female who was in a car accident three years ago, subsequently developed paranoid schizophrenia and years later, yeah, three years later, she's in florida keep talking yeah, this is in um, florida, in fact with dr demayo, who shared this case with me, and that this gal was going to be incarcerated into the state psychiatric institute, and her doctor, a naturopathic doctor, referred her over to dr demaya, who ran our 28-point biomarker panel and found these deficiencies, corrected the deficiencies, along with anti-inflammatory nutraceutical products. And what happened? Within six months she's back normal, no longer paranoid, schizophrenic that's why you need to get. Dr DeMaia on this program. To talk about the pure psych If you could.
Speaker 1:We can't get the American Association, we can't get any psychiatric folks To talk to us about this, because we're not. Look, man, we want to work with you To get this knowledge into your base so we can start working on Saving lives. That's too practical, bruce knowledge into your base so we can start working on saving lives. You know and, and, and, and. That's too practical Bruce. That's too pragmatic.
Speaker 2:That's too practical.
Speaker 1:I'm a stubborn guy.
Speaker 2:They want to show that it's psychiatric little blue pill, little green pill as opposed to causation. They're looking at the end stage and this is what my battle is. We have to look at the beginning, middle and, obviously, the end stages. Well, if we can jump on board early enough, we can stop that suffering leading up to the psychiatric emotional changes. That is my goal. That has been my goal for the past 30 years since I've been in this venue, since 1995 to now. It's 30 years. My true transformation came about in 2004 and then 2009 with the military. You know and learned a lot. You know I read a lot. I learned a lot from experience and there's a lot more that we can do in terms of getting the information out there. How to get it out there so that people will take you seriously is my battle. You know. Yeah, I was called by nato for ukraine. I'm going to australia with you know, paul yeah, start the process there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, paul.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I'd love to help you. I love Australia, man, I'll we're. I'm working with Paul on a lot of initiatives right now because, uh, you know this, he's, he's aware of it, and Australia is a you know there's another huge that all the lawsuits in Europe right now that are coming down. So good for you for helping him out, man. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated, Bruce, because I think my UK, at the invitation of the Ministry of Defense and the military surgeon general, at where was it at Imperial College to explain why their top SAS guys were flying into Los Angeles for assessment and treatment? My simple answer was maybe they want to get better. Yeah, how many people don't want to get better? Well, don't you think? Not you, but don't they think that we need to find what works? And we have, as of this morning, 9,382 people in our program. 2,000 are military.
Speaker 1:Paying out of pocket, trying to get better.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm self-funded. I generate funds from everything I do and I help to bring them in.
Speaker 1:No, it wasn't that. My point was, doc, is that you should be getting paid from insurance, whether it's you or anything else. It's a big problem and we caused this Society is what we sent these men and women to war. Okay, they came back and I've been there four different times. Right, they come back, and then they. They want you to be some kind of choir boy and if you act out it's your fault and and you got to pay the price and it's just a wrong way to address the sacrifices that have been made. Like you, I'm frustrated. I have been fighting as long as you have, but in three years I've been creating a lot of waves, accelerated course.
Speaker 1:We are pushing and I just think that you've got an important ingredient to the solution of this problem and I mean I looked on your website today how many like you talk about your cadre. You got like districts that are like. I mean you got, like quite a list of you know, a channel of providers that you've trained up for your protocol.
Speaker 2:We have about 117 facilities in 12 countries. I own none of them. They don't pay me anything. What they do is they implement. They took my class. They took a live class or online. They learned about, you know, the software that helps them to accelerate the ability to perform at the same level as we do, and I encourage them. I check in on them periodically. They don't pay me for checking in on them, because it's the greater good that I'm looking to have as the outcome. Yes, the Millennium needs funding so that we can continue paying more for our veterans. It was originally $2,500. Now they're paying $1,000. Even though the laboratory costs are $3,000're only paying a thousand dollars for the program, and I'm trying to get it just by a laboratory.
Speaker 1:Well, how about we just buy a laboratory and put some people in it to do the panels for like nothing? How's that?
Speaker 2:you know, and I'm close enough to the one in florida in jupiter access medical laboratories, who have just given me funding for a new project for our veterans to test out one of our new mushroom products. It's medicinal mushrooms that are all for dropping inflammation. I'll send you the paper I wrote.
Speaker 1:I haven't disseminated it, but we're going to do the study.
Speaker 2:Access Medical Lab very, very kind to have funded us for 30 guys to go through some really high-end specialty testing for inflammation, neuroinflammation, using cytokine markers and to test this product. If the product drops the cytokine, we've got a good product. If the product doesn't drop the cytokines, the inflammatory chemistry of the brain, then we don't have a good product and that means that the product we've been using right now that does a very good job is the stuff you already tried the Brain Rescue 3, which is our number one product at improving cognitive function, emotional stability, because it helps to drop inflammation in the brain. You know what I like, doc, is you?
Speaker 1:No, no, I mean amazing. And what I taught, what I, what I, what you just said, really impacts me, because this is the gap. This is what I don't see out. There is the greater good. Okay, whether it's politics, it comes to soldiers, it comes to our kids, everybody's got an angle right. I got it, I got to do this, I got to sell that. I got you know, or you know, it's got my ego. The ego in this medical world blows me away with the people that will not work together for the common good. Well, we here at the Mac Parkman Foundation, that's all we care about. We've got children dying. All my NFL friends are a mess, you know, and I don't have a lot of them. But the guys I've met that I'm pretty close to because NFL veterans and soldiers get along really well, I don't know why we get the same mentality. You're both fighters.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like man.
Speaker 1:You could have been in the Army for years, man, but we just got all this carnage that I just refuse to not see, and I think folks like you are just out there in front of this and I want people to know. If you need any volunteers for that project, you let me know. We'll get the word out. I'll get you folks, there's no doubt that.
Speaker 2:Well, if you've got some veterans, I'm just filling out the paper, the screening paper. I'll send you a copy of it. Let me just put a note down. I'll send you a copy of it. You just put a note down, I'll send you a copy of it. You can disseminate it to any branch, any individual, male, female, doesn't matter. But they have to have uh the um criteria, uh, exclusionary um criteria, um, because there's certain things they can't be taking because that will impede, uh, the results that we're looking for, if they happen.
Speaker 1:Absolutely no, we'll get. We'll help you get that out. And then, yeah, I mean let's, let's keep the conversation going, sir. I mean it's been an amazing podcast and a and a great journey and I can't thank you enough for the time. You know the the opportunity to help spread the word on what you're doing, and we will push it out Every time you've got something new sent out to me, we'll get it out there.
Speaker 1:We'll get it out there for you. Okay, Appreciate it. Well. Dr Gordon, cannot thank you enough for coming on the show. It's been an amazing talk. Thank you for all you're doing for our veterans, our kids, our parents that love to have their kids back. I mean, of course, I wish I had my son back every day, but this is the way I've got to make him proud. So you pivot. The subcussive trauma has just made me joyful as all get out and let's go take on the establishment.
Speaker 2:Thanks for the redirection that you gave me through your subconcussive trauma.
Speaker 1:Now we're going to that. Conference in DC is coming up next year. It's going to be big and you're going to be a part of it. All right, Well thank you so much for your time. Next on we'll have you back again, folks. Dr Gordon, amazing man, amazing products. Please take a look at what he's doing for the people that we love, and thanks a lot for your time. Thank you, sir you, thank you.